I believed that seasoning was not necessary; that as burrs were seasoned through normal use, that the taste of coffee would not change, however it would become easier to dial-in consistently. However, there is so much noise about seasoning across the Internet that I thought to ask if it really matters? If it does then how much coffee is recommended for the NIche Zero, and also for both stock burrs of the Duo? Thanks for your help.

> @"BrendaninBrooklyn"#p53486 However, there is so much noise about seasoning across the Internet that I thought to ask if it really matters? If it does then how much coffee is recommended for the NIche Zero, and also for both stock burrs of the Duo? > > Thanks for your help. Within the first Kg or 2 is where most of the improvement comes but it's best just to use it…not try and "season" it

Personally I run 200 or so through as I usually have a duff roast I've bought from a roaster saved somewhere. Then just use as per normal

@"DavecUK"#p53488 Thank you; I thought I'd hear good sense @ Coffeetime ;-)

@"Cuprajake"#p53490 Thank you. I had been thinking of asking local roasters to sell me their bad beans inexpensively, but not-seasoning is even more appealing.

Niche Burr Seasoning

ST30B

Cuprajake Snap. I have a ‘dreggs’ tin which I’ve saved up the last few months to be used on the Duo.

dndrich

No seasoning for me with my zero. I just used the thing from day one. Fabulous coffee. Over the first 6 months my grind size for espresso went from around 20 to around 8 on the dial and has stayed there ever since. Such a fantastic machine.

james65477564

I bought cheap coffee from tesco, approx £10 per kilo. I only put 2kg through each burr set and then started using as normal. No issues and no obvious change/improvement since.

Mostlyharmless

From new I noticed very little change with the niche zero. There was fiddling with dial in but I am unsure how much of that was break-in/seasoning vs me just learning to dial in on the Zero’s big conicals.

The EG1 v3 w/ core burrs, however, were not great to my taste out of the box. There was an astringent top note to everything that was unpleasant. Per my reading of interweb posts I plowed 3.3kg of crap beans through, which had a noticeable effect. My go-to espresso is now much sweeter with a smooth lingering, finish. At about a week and 4kg in, I’m noticing that my zero point is still a little mobile and I have to adjust grind size accordingly.

very interested to hear more about early experience with the Duo. I was considering a pair of Duos vs the EG1, which has been dramatically faffy-er than I expected.

DavecUK

Mostlyharmless the EG1, which has been dramatically faffy-er than I expected.

I found the EG1 work flow the same…and a lot of static.

Cuprajake

I don’t like this using of cheap beans. It just blocks up the burrs.

james65477564

Cuprajake indeed. I found that out pretty quickly and had to make sure I wasn’t grinding too fine with the cheap beans.

Mostlyharmless

DavecUK I followed your (and @tompoland’s) dalliances with the EG-1 with great interest. I regret I did not find the thread(s) sooner. My major takeaway so far is that I’m spoiled for workflow by the Niche Zero.

I reserve judgement on the EG-1’s long-term place on my counter, as it’s only been a week. Taste from the Core burrs for espresso is promising and already seem to address some of my personal issues with the Zero (namely, a prevailing bitter aftertaste regardless of how good the rest of the shot was). Immersion+aeropress continue to be underwhelming on the EG-1, but I am still seasoning/dialing in. I have yet to install the ULFs, which I am told require an alarming 10-20kg to season.

As for EG-1 workflow, I find some aspects near rage-inducing: the capricious zero-ing and alignment procedure, the baffling lack of dial calibration, the bean-hoarding input chamber, and my goodness I agree aboutthe static. I love coffee but hate coffee grounds – the Zero allowed me to maintain a neat-and-tidy counter even without RDT. The EG-1 literally exists in a cloud of coffee dust. Curiously, this has engendered a new appreciation for the Niche’s George Jetson styling which I originally dismissed as goofy: its curved and enameled monolith of a body doesn’t give a lot of opportunity for grounds to accumulate. The EG-1 by comparison is a cubist nightmare, all corners and crannies that collect coffee grounds. My coffeetime is now dominated by cleaning.

Again, it’s early days but I’ve already come to the sullen realization that I may grow weary of the faff. Should I consider the Duo? Even a pair of them with dual burrsets each would cost less than half the EG-1 and spare me the (minimal) trouble of switching burrs, as well as provide extra carriers to explore other sets. It is also early days for the Duo, so there seems a dearth of exhaustive reviews of the Duo’s in-cup performance (hype from youtube personalities notwithstanding). I’m very interested in real users’ assessments of the Duo, especially against the EG-1. Or is this an absurd question on my part? I appreciate any advice.

tompoland

Mostlyharmless I consider the Duo?

Heck yes. A better grinder many times over.

I love the look of the EG-1 (many dislike it) and the build quality seems impressive but it lacks the design smarts of the Duo.

DavecUK

Mostlyharmless Again, it’s early days but I’ve already come to the sullen realization that I may grow weary of the faff. Should I consider the Duo? Even a pair of them with dual burrsets each would cost less than half the EG-1 and spare me the (minimal) trouble of switching burrs, as well as provide extra carriers to explore other sets. It is also early days for the Duo, so there seems a dearth of exhaustive reviews of the Duo’s in-cup performance (hype from youtube personalities notwithstanding). I’m very interested in real users’ assessments of the Duo, especially against the EG-1. Or is this an absurd question on my part? I appreciate any advice.

Lets take each point in turn.

Ownership of a top brand is very satisfying - However once you look at it realistically, it doesn’t always add up. The EG1 is one of the more expensive crop of prosumer grinders and in many respects including taste is inferior to the Kafatek Monolith Flat Max 2 with shuriken burrs and the Lagom P100 (which I don’t really like. The fact is’t a fair bit more expensive than either is baffling to me?

In cup performance from YT personalities - These people are doing untold damage with (in the most part) their need to shill products and generate income. no point pushing a grinder their affiliate linking (cut and paste their weblinks into notepad and you will see) doesn’t work for, or upsetting certain companies they have a close association with. As for in cup performance…I honestly couldn’t tell the difference between the Duo with 151B burrs spinning at 530 rpm and the Webber EG1. Vs the Lagom P100 it’s just different. The only grinder I do think is better is the Kafatek Flat Max 2, I can genuinely taste the difference. The real question, is that difference worth £2500 more? Personally, I could think of better ways to spend £2500

Disclosure - Just so you are aware, I did get paid consultancy for the Duo, I was doing it for free, but they insisted I get paid for my work. That project is over, should it sell in the, 100s, 1000s, or 100s of thousands makes no difference to me or my pocket. I am now involved in other projects. I wanted to help give the coffee world something different and an 83mm grinder that was affordable, and performed as well as I could make it perform based on my knowledge of burrs and grinders. It was 2 years in the making prior to launch, many prototypes, many changes, so a fully mature, final product could be launched. The design of has certain aspects, a lot of which will be invisible to the end user, but make a massive difference to performance. It’s a grinder which will almost completely clear the chamber with no RDT and no bellows whilst the burrs spin at 530 rpm and grind times are kept reasonable. This is no mean feat. Speed was chosen very carefully to optimise the performance of the burrs and a whole host of little details, but the whole thing kept super simple for the end user. Oh and it doesn’t stall with light roasted coffee (ever), which seems to be a feature of the latest grinders, along with hot starting.

Hoffman said something about the EG1 being the finest grinder he has ever used, personally I completely didn’t find this the case. I think it’s another overpriced Weber product that doesn’t deliver on the value paid. If it’s about ownership, or what Hoffman said sure…people will buy them.

Should you buy a Duo….I don’t know, you could think about the following. You could buy one (with dual burr set) with the following plan. try it against the EG1, keep an open mind and decide which one is better/same on taste for Espresso and Filter.

If you decide the EG1 is better - sell the Duo and lose perhaps a small amount of money £50-100
If you decide the Duo seems the same - sell the EG1 (loads of people want them) and bank a large amount of money£2000-4000?

I used to own 2 motorcycles a Honda CBR1000FJ (full power) and a factory custom Harley Davidson Fat Boy (a la terminator 2). I had to sell the Harley in the end simply because the Honda was nicer to ride and every time I went into the garage and looked at the 2 motorcycles. I could see a Honda and next to it a big pile of £50 notes totting up to £10,500. One year later I sold the Harley to a Police motorcyclist who came up from Devon and rode it back…for exactly the same as I paid for it. he was overjoyed, as was I.

Mostlyharmless

DavecUK Holy mackerel Thank you for the long and thoughtful response. Very much appreciate your time.

Disclosure - Just so you are aware, I did get paid consultancy for the Duo, I was doing it for free…

I was aware of your collaborations with Niche. I appreciate your transparency and user-focused persnickety-ness. I am DYING to ask you so many questions about the design decisions that are invisible to lay-people, NDAs be damned :P.

I honestly couldn’t tell the difference between the Duo with 151B burrs spinning at 530 rpm and the Webber EG1. Vs the Lagom P100 it’s just different

This is super helpful; there’s a weird lack of useful, direct comparisons of what’s happening in-cup between the incumbent Titan grinders and the plethora of new comers.

Lagom P100 (which I don’t really like.

Would you mind expounding on this? I have heard this too from (remote) friends.

Hoffman said something about the EG1 being the finest grinder he has ever used, personally I completely didn’t find this the case. I think it’s another overpriced Weber product that doesn’t deliver on the value paid. If it’s about ownership, or what Hoffman said sure…people will buy them.

Well, maybe it was more true at the time? Not defending his conclusion, from a usability perspective I disagree as well. As for the taste of its coffee – well, I haven’t a lot of experience with high-end kit and I can perceive where it improves on flavor/clarity/sweetness/etc. Whether that’s worth it? yeeesh

It was actually Jonathan’s Gagne’s use of an EG-1 that moved me to buy one. That and I will confess to an irrational love of magnets. But it was interesting to see Gagne characterize many of its properties in the service of SCIENCE!. Being unable to sample an EG-1 beforehand, I could at least take comfort in the existence of some…metrics, I suppose.

tompoland seems impressive but it lacks the design smarts of the Duo

Hard agreed. This thing feels like an amalgam of design-house indulgences and conceits, but it ultimately falls short on coherent end-to-end usability. They have forgotten the human. As much as I like the taste of both the core and ULF burrs, I am favoring the Zero for my morning espresso shots before rushing out the door. And its coffee is pretty good too.

The EG-1’s bundled coffee brush is really nice though. Ok, the pour over on the ULFs is getting much better as well. But what an ordeal to use (and it sounds terrible. My old Sette 270wi was worse, but at least it was uniformly bad. The drama inside the EG-1 sounds a like a violent negotiation with the beans that the EG-1 frequently loses).

Should you buy a Duo….I don’t know, you could think about the following. You could buy one (with dual burr set) with the following plan. try it against the EG1, keep an open mind and decide which one is better/same on taste for Espresso and Filter.

A good idea. I’ve ordered one (sigh, they won’t let me order two, at the moment). My intuition is that SSP HUs for filter will probably get me to where I want to go. It’s a pity Niche won’t sell burr carriers, but I can understand their reticence. The aftermarket support alone would be nightmare-ish for a small company. EDIT: just realized that swapping burrs will straight-up void the warranty. alas, again.

The only grinder I do think is better is the Kafatek Flat Max 2, I can genuinely taste the difference.

I’ve had an MC5 (well, now MC6) on order since I had the good fortune to sample one during a visit to a local roaster. Only 5 more months to go until delivery :( I have been hesitant to order a Flat Max due to my indecisiveness over SW or SLM or CR burrs or what. And burr swapping looks terrifying, even with modest mechanical aptitude. The very antithesis of the Duo. I have resigned myself to having dedicated grinders for espresso vs. filter (the promise of the EG-1’s Core burrs flexibility notwithstanding) , but have been reluctant to explode the combinatorics further along the roast-level axis. I’ll probably come around eventually but will need more counter space.

Thank you all for your collective advice. If you’ve read this far thank you for taking the time and letting me unburden myself. I am fortunate to have the means to indulge myself in this hobby a bit, if not the time. So reading about your experiences has been very helpful accelerate my choices.

EDIT: to @BrendaninBrooklyn apologies for derailing your thread. To get back on topic, I am now 15kg into seasoning the EG-1 across Core and ULF burrs, and I kinda hate my life right now :P There’s definitely some improvement, but it’s rapidly becoming marginal.

Twotone2

The duo just works right out of the box, grind settings are pretty consistent ie no adjustments or very little even with different beans (medium-dark roasts so far) no clumping and no static (amazing).

Changing burrs is unbelievably easy and takes about a minute.

Simple to clean and takes minutes.

Worth every penny.

JonWoo187

I almost always choose function over form, but in the case of the Niche line I can’t get past the dinky look regardless of performance. What they seem to accomplish for the price point is pretty much unrivaled, just no way I could pull the trigger on one. Also not into single dosing any electric, but that’s another topic altogether.

DavecUK

JonWoo187 I almost always choose function over form, but in the case of the Niche line I can’t get past the dinky look regardless of performance. What they seem to accomplish for the price point is pretty much unrivaled, just no way I could pull the trigger on one. Also not into single dosing any electric, but that’s another topic altogether.

I think that’s what makes us human and accounts for the large variety of coffee kit available. Just ensure it doesn’t lead you down the rabbit hole of very high price for an inferior product e.g. in very high end grinders, the Weber products, Key and EG1 don’t make anything like good buy, or very good grinders. Lagom, Kafatek etc.. will all be better.

I know this will enrage owners, but I call it as I personally found it.

here is what I posted in answer to a question about the Weber Key on another forum

JayBeck wrote: Curious what types of issues you’ve had with the Key? I’ve owned one for 18 months and have been pleased with it. Big upgrade over Niche.

1. During assembly whoever made mine didn’t give a fig about over tightening and poor fit. This meant that a simple job of adding the antistatic scraper/wiper was impossible without damaging the finish of the grinder. They say to hold the shaft with rubber gloves (that’s a laugh) to undo the allen bolt at the bottom to fit the wiper. This is impossible with a polished shaft and an over tightened allen bolt.

So we are told to remove the gearbox cover and put an allen key in the hole to hold the shaft still while we undo it. There is only 1 supplied that fits, and it’s too thin and bends, the key you want to use is in your hand undoing the nut…thanks Weber. Thanks for putting the hole under the gearbox cover so I have to take that off, instead of further down the shaft.

Thanks again whoever decided that because the gearbox cover didn’t fit, they would bash it in with the heel of their hand making it impossible to remove without slipping a flat blade in the gap at the rear which I could just open up using a pair of special grip gloves. Then a massive thanks to whoever used the weak powder coat that chipped away like chalk, not only where I had to lever it out with a flat blade, but at the front where the person assembling it rammed it in.

It’s an absolute static monster underneath and the antistatic blade does little to help with this…loads of coffee under the burrs.
At lower speeds it can struggle
Burr alignment is a slight issue, although the grind quality (taste wise and shot performance) is OK to good, not fantastic and possibly for the money paid you can get better..
The lid thing rattles when grinding and the hole is very awkward to feed beans though
The grind cup with the insert. Easy to catch on the static wiper when replacing, removing, magnetises to the grinder, but the part that sits on the portafilter is not magnetised and only has a slight ridge, so easy to dislodge when removing the inner part to let the coffee though.
Generally quite a messy grinder to use.
Stepped and easy to loose your espresso setting when changing to filter and back (really easy)
I think there are better grinders for the same or less money (UK Cost).

I think that’s all of the negative points covered. To be balanced

It looks fine
Speed control works well within the limited workable range
It’s quiet when running. Although I still need to do comparison decibel measurements running/grinding.

P.S. I’ve never damaged anything (coffee) in 20 years taking it apart and putting it back together again, and especially not when performing basic maintenance as per the user guide!

BrendaninBrooklyn

Mostlyharmless Not to worry; I’d already gotten all the answers I needed. Good luck with your coffee journey.