Not necessarily an oxymoron.

(Thought I’d get in before some wag does).

I’m (very) interested to know what members regard as ethical conduct when it comes to paid product promotions.

For the sake of clarity, I’m not referring to a James Hoffman style Patreon funded review but the more typical influencer review such as you might see on YouTube e.g. ‘daddy got coffee’ or ‘lifestyle lab’ where the manufacturer sends kit to a professional (as in ‘makes a living from reviews’) influencer.

I’m posting about this on CT specifically because I’ve noticed more criticism of influencers here than anywhere else so I figured if there was a consencus here, it would more likely to be accepted elsewhere.

Full disclosure: I’ve written a handful of coffee grinder reviews and I’ve now had approaches from two manufacturers who want to discuss sending me their grinders for review. I have my idea of what ethical disclosure looks like but that view may not be shared by others and I want to get all my (ethical) ducks in a row.

This post is to canvas a wide range of opinions because ethics is more subjective than laws or rules. FWIW my definition of ethics is ‘obedience to an unenforceable value or ideal’.

To get the ball rolling, my idea of ethical influencer behavior would be to declare any vested interest clearly at the start of a review. For example, if a manufacturer is paying for a review then that should be explicitly stated. Or if a manfuacturer sends a grinder and says ’it’s yours to keep in exchange for a review, warts and all’, then that needs to be declared. And it may go without saying but any ‘strings attached’ requests would be declined. e.g. ‘if we like your review you can keep the machine’.

Please note that I’m not intending the scope of this thread to cover incentive-induced bias but feel free to comment on that if you feel that bias can’t be seperated from ethics. Bias runs a spectrum I suspect, from concsious to unconsious and based on my experience to date, we tend to have a bias towards certain brands or perhaps a certain look or even a color bias.

Anyhow, the floor is yours. What would you consider ethical or unethical behaviour from an influencer?

Thanks in advance.

    Regardless of bias or not

    You will get treated like shit by small minded people who simply cannot believe your conclusion

    I got absolutely rinced on 4 forums and discord because of the small involvement I had with the duo

    To the point I got banned on one the day I mentioned testing the duo,
    On discord I had 2 separate people take personal jibes one via pm while I was actively trying to help them,

    So much so I left coffeesnobs, discord and home barista, I was banned off talk coffee.

    Tbh even got grief off someone who I considered a friend!

    So just be prepared for people to hate you.

    That’s why I have cut down my forum use as I’m finding in general 8 out of 10 people are c unts

    Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

    The things you have mentioned, in terms of disclaimers are the “must have” and as Jake has said, no matter how objective an influencer can be, small minded people will always “find” you. This is inevitable and comes with the territory.
    @DavecUK has set the standard for me with a very detailed and straightforward reviews. This did not stop some people to accuse him in pursuing personal commercial interests.
    The bottom line is you might have to be prepared for some nasty people shouting at you but the truth is you will never be able to please all, no matter what.
    From a personal point of view, you have already influenced me to buy a hand grinder and a mobile espresso maker so it works 😀

    Current setup: ACS Vesuvius, Nuova Simonelli Mythos One. Past experience, Nuova Simonelli Apia 1 gr., San Remo Capri 1 gr., Bezzera BZ 35e, Fracino Heavenly. Anfim Super Lusso.

    Contact me at: john_yossarian11@yahoo.com

    I like to just watch influencer videos as a ‘how it works/what it does’ video and take any comments about how good/bad something is with a large pinch of salt and disregard points about quality.

    For example, I enjoy watching James Hoffman / Lance Hedrick content as it’s nicely produced and usually shows machines/grinders in action. As above, I’d make my own mind up whether it’s something I want to buy and try out for myself. Which ultimately is the only way to know for certain if something is good/bad. Of course that’s also sometimes subjective to the end user.

    I do think influencers catch a bit too much stick sometimes (not always…). It’s very time consuming to shoot the level of content you see on some of the more popular videos. Plan shots, setup multiple cameras, lighting, many takes. Then the editing, processing and rendering all takes huge amounts of time and often lots of expensive equipment. And then as @Cuprajake sadly discovered, the payoff is just lots of keyboard warriors trying to ruin your day.

    Honestly for the amount of work that goes into some of the videos and the resulting backlash, sometimes a free grinder/machine barely seems worth it!

    Obviously it can be lucrative but not until you’ve put in a lot of work.

    The mask of the internet really does bring out the worst in people. For whatever reason, presumably unresolved personal issues, some people seem to get a kick out of being critical of others. They don’t like seeing others happy. Sad really but a fact of life I suppose.

    One thing that does irritate me is people taking things they’ve read/seen online about equipment they don’t own as pure gospel and then arguing with actual owners/users about how they’re wrong…

    As with everything on the internet, trying not to take anything to heart or too seriously is usually the best way to consume info/content.

    La Marzocco Linea Mini - Mazzer Philos

    Ikawa Roaster

    Adding a comment as I realise I didn’t really answer the OP question 😅

    If someone’s flat out lying about a feature or specification where they’re being paid/offered free goods to produce content, that’s not right.

    I often just assume equipment has been supplied for free even if not mentioned. I think in the UK paid promotion has to be explicitly flagged, on television and certain platforms at least. I’m sure this is a grey area so it’s easier to just assume the reviewer isn’t completely impartial.

    La Marzocco Linea Mini - Mazzer Philos

    Ikawa Roaster

    Wow Tom, hats off too you for opening this can of worms! I am pushed for time right now, so here are a few random thoughts which will not be coherent.

    Why would anyone wish to be an ‘influencer’? I can think of two reasons only……fame or fortune. How do you get to be famous in an ever crowded marketplace? How do you make people listen to you? If as a relative newcomer you are lucky enough to be sent a product for review, then I guess you can be brutally honest, or as bent as most. Can you be honest about how bad a product is (or talk about its shortcomings rather than its good points), still be attractive to your audience and keep manufacturers on board.

    Is the whole point of influencing just selling, either of the product or yourself? Absolutely no criticism here of those who decide to go on camera and talk about things. There are clear differences between young influencers who try to sell. sunglasses , restaurants etc and someone doing a review of equipment.

    Which brings me on to our own @DavecUK. As you may have worked out by now, Dave detests the usual commercial structure that exists amongst influencers. He does his reviews out of love. His YT channel is not monetised so he cares not who he offends. He does both manufacturer reviews that never see the light of day to the public, and does reviews of things he likes.

    So Tom, I guess the $696,000 question, is what do you want from your hobby? I suspect money is not the answer. Youtube seems awash with folks who review anything. You specialise in coffee grinders. If you do not want to make a living from this, then you do not need a complicated studio, a film crew and full editing suite. That is not to say you cannot appear professional though.

    Once you have your thoughts clear, I would make a statement up and when manufacturers offer you things accept as long as they sign your declaration of impartiality and have some fun!

    Hey Tom!

    An interesting question which made me stop and think about my perception of online reviews. My underlying assumption is that if the person making the video has had any sort of kickback from the manufacturer, whether or not that takes the form of payment for a review, a free machine, or a bag of coffee, they cannot be wholly objective. It doesn’t necessarily mean that I don’t trust that reviewer, but it does mean I won’t consider their opinion as anything other than an advert for the product. I may still choose to watch the video to get an idea of what a grinder or machine looks or sounds like, but that’s really all I’m interested in, and usually I’ll look elsewhere.

    There are also some reviewers who I just don’t watch, like Lance Hedrick. I have, perhaps unfairly, decided he is so desperate to be part of the online coffee ‘influencer’ community that he will do anything for views and attention, and the videos of his I have previously seen take a very sensationalist approach. In my eyes this grossly undermines his credibility, as I have no way of knowing whether he is making a video as a critical, considered review, or just to get as many clicks as possible.

    Coming back to your question, to me an ‘ethical’ review is not just one in which all competing interests are declared, but one which is only undertaken if there are no competing interests. This is surely the only way to be objective and devoid of bias towards the manufacturer.

    As an aside, I think your reviews are fantastic Tom. I value your opinion of equipment very highly precisely because of your integrity and objectivity.

    Decent DE1 • Mazzer Philos

      you can be objective, it just means you dont get free stuff

      Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

      I must admit I have a sense of admiration for a lot of these content creators, divisive and occasionally insufferable as they might be.

      If I was a grad coming out of Uni, 50k in debt or whatever it is these days, faced with the prospect of busting my backside for awful (and worsening) pay in a job widely viewed by society as a ‘proper career’, or shooting videos and learning production about a subject I was passionate about for enormous sums of money… I know which I’d prefer.

      Some of these people earn serious money, like many millions. I can see the appeal, and I really don’t think you can blame people for chasing that. In 2023, it’s like telling your Son to ‘go and get a proper job’, where a ‘proper job’ in the modern age is usually soul-destroying and underpaid.

      Also, I think for better or worse, YouTube is becoming a more general entertainment platform rather than the personal vlog platform it started as. Just like TV, truth and honesty becomes blurry at the cost of entertainment value.

      Not saying I support dishonesty, but as in my post earlier, taken at face value and not as a fully factual analysis, I think there’s some good stuff to be watched.

      Forums like this are where we go for honest, factual review and comment.

      La Marzocco Linea Mini - Mazzer Philos

      Ikawa Roaster

      Everytime I hear the word ‘influencer’ I am reminded of Andy Warhol’s quote, “In the future, everyone will be world-famous for 15 minutes.” It’s a sad reflection of where we are when wannabees can command followings into the millions. We have entered an era of mass self deception.

      If you are paid to review something on Youtube isn’t it supposed to have a tag saying, “contains paid promotion”, or similar? I guess that if you have done this once, the assumption will be that all reviews by that entity are paid for, going forward, Muddying the pitch with respect to transparency & shilling.

      If things are supplied from the manufacturer for free, irrespective of review findings, this is a little suspect to me, in terms of cherry picking the item for review.

      I’m not so concerned about ethics (it currently seems a very grey line somewhat in favour of puff pieces, whether paid, or not - it’s difficult to see how the bar can be raised in the public perception) more concerned about the pitiful level of competence that most display in the field I am interested in, being brewed coffee, Once one of the the influencers raises a point/concern, the others start repeating it, parrot fashion, without critical testing - with little evidence that it is a tangible thing.

      For example, I have seen product break during review and the presenter employing a ‘work around’ to complete the review, rather than just stopping and giving the product a thumbs down. I’d even go so far as to say that grinders that don’t grind from a cold start/need adjusting coarser whilst grinding, should also fall into this category.

      JammyDodger This is how you tell, by the usefulness of a proper review, vs puff piece.

      Be patient, MS sway is taking a long time to load at the moment

      My review of the Lelit Elizabeth

      https://sway.office.com/YUuIpMmQlYAFkxIO?ref=Link

      My Hints and tips

      https://sway.office.com/S5J4d9Jp4Y9LdVFx?ref=Link

      https://sway.office.com/qoXHjmMAg4DeFX8b?ref=email

      Influencers does exist since loooong time ago, before were the tele marketing sales.

      I never ever bought any objects thanks to a tele marketing sales or influencers, so if people has not the way to get unbiased info or “real” friends suggestions, the influencers are a sort of, but not unbiased.

      Sometimes i found out that even “real reviewers” did omit some important info that could definitely make that product a no go, but probably they even never noticed the weak point or maybe they did, so does we should mark them as not ethic?

      If a grinder does stall at lower speed, but i decide to buy it anyway after “influencers” review who is to blame, me. the influencers, the sellers, or the manufacturers??? …probably none if i’m happy with that grinder, unsatisfied customers have a lot of forums where to express their “polite” opinion.

      Influencers should be regulated as any others legalized works, so even in term of ethic.

      In the audio world, I’ve seen a wide sort of behavior.

      • People that order speakers from a place with a very forgiving return policy. They never had any intension on purchasing the speakers and used the supplier to subsidize their channel.
      • People that beg manufacturer’s to send them units for review, and when the manufacturers says no, they bad mouth them.
      • People that withhold reviews while they negotiate with the manufactures on terms.
      • People that badmouth everyone that didn’t pay for product placement. Especially if the product is significantly cheaper (I’m specifically thinking of subwoofers when I say this. There is not much to them.).

      As I went down the audio rabbit hole, I realized that most reviewers don’t know shit. Their main audience target is the ignorant masses. With a little bit of research, you will know more than 95% of them.

      As far as audio reviewers go that have good ethics, I like Erins Audio Corner. He gives his subjective opinion, but he backs it up with data from his very expensive test equipment. He’s a very knowledgeable reviewer.

      https://www.youtube.com/@ErinsAudioCorner

      He gets his speakers to test from a variety of sources. He discloses who funded it.

      • Some he bought.
      • Some owners sent in
      • Some manufacturers sent in (with return)
      • Some manufactures gifted (no return required)

      I think as you mentioned honest disclosure and having a strict policy of having the manufacturer not vetting your videos or reviews before publication is critically important. I know in a bunch of the 3D printing and headphone audio channels I follow usually have a standard spiel at the beginning of videos and link to their review policy in YouTube videos or link from detailed online reviews.

      From there I think the quality of your reviews will be judged by the audience and form your authenticity. Does the review match up generally with other objective voices and general reviews and feedback on forums and stuff like that.

      I think the other thing to consider is that vendors might want less detailed and scientific reviews than you might have in mind. The coffee nerd audience is a smaller sub-group of the bigger audience of people buying coffee kit.

        roosterben I think the other thing to consider is that vendors might want less detailed and scientific reviews than you might have in mind. The coffee nerd audience is a smaller sub-group of the bigger audience of people buying coffee kit.

        Welcome to the forum, I think you have identified an important point. Are you doing a review or a sales job. If the review is something people will go back to (especially after getting the machine)….then it’s a “review”.

        It’s made me think though, even though I don’t really do many reviews any more, because they are a lot of work and I prefer to help in the design area…in future, my reviews should consist of a “preview”…then an “inview”. This allows people to select which bits they watch.

        In fact I subconsciously started to do that on may last few full blown reviews reviews. Where advanced and technical settings, pro hints and tips, were in separate documents with videos.

          It’s a very double edged sword

          You get sent free item to review, you don’t like and say so, said company will move onto the next influencer.

          Toms appeal is

          Giphy - Make It Rain Money GIF

          He has done well for himself and even with the massive prices the Aussie have to pay he’s managed to pay for 90% of his gear, which gives him the advantage of being able to say what he really thinks with no pressure, unless he gets blacklisted 😂😂😂 like me

          Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

          DavecUK Thanks for the welcome!

          Good point some of the content creators will do a long series of videos on devices with each video being a focus on particular areas/function. Often with the first being a quick roundup / feature summary etc. This could be a good way to cover a wider audience and still getting really scientific.

          As long as the influencer declares expressly all his conflicts of interests and the circumstances of how he got the kit, I think that is good enough. At the end of the day, everybody who expresses an opinion on anything already has an agenda of his or her own and is biased. So not only the professional influencer can be disqualified on such grounds but all of us as well - though obviously to a different degree. The motive may not be that we make a living from it, and it can be driven by ego or vanity or relationship or any other reason but it is always there to some.degree. So the search for total objectivity is a quixotic quest and we will never find a review that is absolutely impartial. It is not that there are untrustworthy bloggers and there are totally trustworthy ones - it is a spectrum and it is caveat emptor for all of them.

          At the end of the day, the professional influencer has a vested interest to try to reduce his level of bias and agenda as much as he can or at least to reduce the appearance of bias as much as he can because only those who have established trust will succeed in carving out a permanent niche for themselves in the crowded marketplace so as to be taken seriously by consumers. And so he has to make maximum disclosure of all the good and bad points of the machine being reviewed. The level of success he has in achieving this goal as well the charisma and personality that he uses in marketing himself and differentiating himself from other reviewers will determine his longevity in this business. The market will shake out all the chaff in time and the cream will rise to the surface (yes I know I am.mixing up two metaphors…)

          roosterben I think as you mentioned honest disclosure and having a strict policy of having the manufacturer not vetting your videos or reviews before publication is critically important.

          I actually appreciate Tom giving the manufacturer the right of reply. It gives an opportunity to fix gross errors. The hard part is staying firm and not changing the review after letting the manufacturer comment on it.