• Grinders

  • Taste Differences Between Varia VS3 Gen 2 Burr Options ?

thetravdog I really don’t see a niche as much of an upgrade on the Varia personally. I’d probably want to move to something flat burr and with more of a flat burr profile, probably DF64 or another 64mm option

Understood. Its all about taste. Which means its about the burrs and how they are aligned within the grinder. Its best to buy a grinder with the burrs and alignment that are suited to the type of beans that you like and the taste notes that you prefer.

So..its all about the taste that you prefer, not what hyperbolic YouTube Influencers say is better or worse about a given grinder.

Except maybe a couple, like Dave, who is not a stereotypical “Influencer”, but understands grinder and espresso machine engineering through and through. And Tom Poland, who understands burrs as well as anyone I know. I trust both these guys implicitly.

Enjoy your Varia and please do share your taste experiences, as I hope to learn from you about what works and doesn’t work with that grinder.

For me, as I have my Niche Z as my daily driver and the Varia as my auto travel/extended stay grinder and my 1Zpresso JMax as my airtravel grinder, and my Decent for never ending play, I’m good for a while. Until the itch for a flat overcomes my financial prudence. Time to sell some stuff I don’t need!

      Agreed, it’s becoming increasingly hard to trust these types of creators. As much as they claim to be impartial I’m still very suspicious. I will say I don’t love my Varia. I think I like the cups I’m getting but as I said before, I want to upgrade my machine before I pass final judgement - I just don’t love using it daily. The grind adjustment collar still loves to move mid grind and as much as Varia tell me greasing the threads fixes it, I don’t think it’s true, I have greased them with every clean and I just think it’s an inherent issue. I just end up holding the collar whilst I grind. Given how slowly it grinds it’s a pain.

      Jack Travis - Sage Bambino Plus & Varia VS3, contact me

        MediumRoastSteam Out of curiosity, why is that?

        I’m sure that there is alot of knowledge about burrs and alignment here on this forum. And granted I know few people involved in burr design. But he sure has taken an interest in testing multiple grinders and burrs, through his grinder lab. He’s been quite helpful.

            thetravdog will say I don’t love my Varia. I think I like the cups I’m getting but as I said before, I want to upgrade my machine before I pass final judgement - I just don’t love using it daily

            Good to know. Fortunately I didn’t buy it as my daily driver, but rather as a grinder for use on automotive or extended stay trips. It’s relatively light, small and portable, so I guess I will just put up with the need to hold the dial to avoid grind settings drift. I will message Tom Poland and the manufacturer about this (Tom appears to have a connection to the manufacturer). Maybe there is a better fix, or atleast they can fix it for Gen 3.

                JHCCoffee But he sure has taken an interest in testing multiple grinders and burrs, through his grinder lab. He’s been quite helpful.

                but does taking an interest makes anyone knowledgeable? You could argue some influencers have many grinders (call it a grinder lab or not), tried a few of them, and have an interest… that doesn’t make them necessarily knowledgeable.

                No disrespect to anyone here, but experience cannot be fast tracked, in my opinion.

                    JHCCoffee yeah it should fit that use case. I want to clarify that I still think it’s a great grinder for the money in terms of taste in the cup. It seems to be something to do with the torque when grinding through beans. With some beans it doesn’t happen, with some I’m moving a grind setting courser during an 18g grind. I’ve reached out to their support twice and each time, as per their instruction, I just cleaned the grinder, greased the threads and it would go away then come back a few weeks later. I didn’t pay for it, I won it, so I honestly am not interested in complaining. Going to clean it tomorrow actually so it’ll probably disappear again!

                    Jack Travis - Sage Bambino Plus & Varia VS3, contact me

                      MediumRoastSteam I’m not sure what your point is here. It’s the internet, you can’t always trust what you watch/read. You just have to take a rounded view of most things and get some different opinions, but at the end of the day you have to live with your decision to buy something

                      Jack Travis - Sage Bambino Plus & Varia VS3, contact me

                          thetravdog - yeah. Sorry. I’m digressing from the thread OP. My point was that there are quite a few people - influencers as an example - who have a relative short experience with coffee equipment. Yet, due to interest in the hobby and being able to have multiple equipment at their disposal by their own means or sponsored, are able to experience what most of us will never do, all in a very short period of time. This, in my opinion, does not fast track their knowledge and experience.

                          Anyway, I am digressing.

                              MediumRoastSteam My point was that there are quite a few people - influencers as an example - who have a relative short experience with coffee equipment. Yet, due to interest in the hobby and being able to have multiple equipment at their disposal by their own means or sponsored, are able to experience what most of us will never do, all in a very short period of time. This, in my opinion, does not fast track their knowledge and experience.

                              Good point! I guess that you have to take everyone’s opinions (and they all are opinions) in the right perspective.

                              Some Influencers have alot of experience but can be hyperbolic in their approach and also do not disclose their commercial backers. Tom has now become an “Influencer” and may not quite have quite as much experience as a couple of other very well known Influencers, but he will (I hope, as he said he would) disclose who his commercial backers are, including whether he is receiving compensation from manufacturers or retailers.

                              Then there are scientific experts (such as Professor Gagne) who are (I hope) less biased. And burr design engineers who (as they work for manufacturers) have obvious bias.

                              And then there is Dave , who provides straight forward engineering information and does not appear to demonstrate bias. Well he does have a soft spot for Lelit and Niche, though his work for them, which does I suppose create some bias, but his videos and web posting are quite factual and balanced.

                              At the end of the day you have to weigh all of this information and make a decision. My only concern is for those who are new to espresso and rely on reviews from Influencers who are not balanced in their reviews, or are biased because of their undeclared commercial backing.

                              Along with alot of hyperbole on various techniques (that often provide conflicting and/or overly complicated advice, sometimes walked back within a year) that must confuse so many people! I could go on and on about this topic.

                              Sorry to digress. Back to the OP.

                                  I gladly say to ignore any influencing and just figure things out for yourself. Nobody will have a clue as to what you might find great and who cares what works for someone else when it’s in their environment, using their equipment, their coffee of choice, etc.? For a grinder simply settle on one that has the features and efficient workflow you want/expect, has minimal retention/involvement as well as offering solid performance/consistency. No grinder ever made will be perfectly suited for everyone and every grinder made will have small tweaks to workaround.

                                  The biggest factor by far and way too overlooked is the COFFEE being used. Burr type won’t give that much noticeable change, more of a placebo effect than anything else. Only real change I’ve found with different burr types is in texture and rarely much difference in taste. Of course taste is subjective regardless of the idiotic scientific spin some wanna put on it and with espresso variables change pretty much constantly and simply no exact way to pinpoint it.

                                  For those that want ultimate control of what you consume definitely get into home roasting. It’s far more impressive to be able to manipulate precisely what a coffee is capable of than going the spending route on equipment that won’t ever come close to matching that variable. Yes this is now a bit off-topic, but the constant mention of this/that grinder being cutting edge whatever gets a bit repetitive and just leaves many at the point of reaching FOMOR (Fear Of Missing Out Retardism).

                                    JHCCoffee
                                    I have said this before and I will say it again - take everybody’s opinion on anything with caution and make up your own mind. Just because one is not a blogger or influencer who makes money off his internet content doesnt make him a disinterested unconflicted opinionator. This includes the opinions of you and i who may actually own the gear in quesiton…Nobody is totally trustworthy. At the least evne if an opinionator doesnt make any money from expressing his opinion, there is the motive of ego and social status and group identity to motivate him…Of course the level of distrust increases with the level of lack of candour aboit ones own biases (ans everyone has his own biases) or lack of transparency about industry input and influence and the terms on which they got the machine… this means just as it is unwise to uncritically accept the opinion of a non blogger or influencer, it is also unwise to dismiss the opinion of a blogger or influencer at face value…

                                      JonWoo187
                                      I believe you are right from my own. Limited experience. The quality of beans is paramount and we cna make too much of a deal on the grinder. For example I have tried a lagpm p64 and while it was very good I did not think it was necessarily obviously better in the cup than my df84 with ssp burrs - of course qualified by the fact that diff equipment and beans were used etc. Discerning and alert contentment is a good virtue to have when it comes to gear…

                                        5 months later


                                        Hi JHCCoffee. I’ve had a Varia VS3 now since April 2024 - and like it very much. You asked about the alternative burr sets.
                                        Don’t dismiss the “Black Titanium” version!
                                        Looking at the distribution data that Varia have provided, it gives the MOST fines, and therefore should give the most “traditional” espresso with darker roasts, which are my preference!
                                        Many suppliers do not stock this variation. It’s the best for “traditional” Espresso, so that’s a shame!

                                        I found the stock Stainlesss “Supernova” too clean for my taste, and only used it for about a week, before loading in the Black Titanium Set, that I had ordered at the same time. MUCH BETTER!
                                        I’m now getting Espressos that beat my old Kinu M47, and the workflow is much easier.

                                        For cafinated coffee I’m drinking a cheap supermarket L’OR Espresso Colombia (pure Arabica), which is a dark roast, perhaps about 8 out of 10? It describes itself as Complex and Tangy, which is about right. Together with 90 grams of Almond milk it makes a lovely “Cortado”. Chocolate, Bitterness and Sourness, Very full flavour!
                                        Yes I’ve tried various much more expensive beans, but none have beaten this €12 for 500g pack.
                                        I’m just about fed up of “Specialty” coffee suppliers, who lie about the roast level, describing something as “4 out of 5”, when I would describe it as at most 2 out of 5, or 3 out of 10… I want about 7-8 out of 10 please!

                                        You specifically asked about De-Caff. I have high blood pressure, so I have to drink mostly de-caff.
                                        I’m even more disillusioned with De-Caffs than with “Caffs”!
                                        I’ve tried so very many!
                                        The best that I’ve found, is once again a Cheapo-Supermarket supposedly “Rubbish” bean. Mercadona’s own De-Caff. (I live in spain, and very close to a Mercadona main distribution hub, so they come nice and fresh! The packet still gassing.
                                        This is around 6 out of 10 for roast level, and has an acceptable taste which is mostly “Creamy”, but can have just a little bitterness and Sourness too. Not much of the Chocolate that I love…

                                        I’ve been experimenting with making my own special blend, using that “Mercadona Default De-Caff” as the basis, but adding back in some Chocolate flavour with 10-15% of that lovely L’OR Colombia - Chocolate Heaven!
                                        I’m now getting “De-Caff” coffee which is around 85% as good as the L’OR, and “mostly De-Caff” (and much cheaper!)
                                        Try it with whatever local supply you have. The “Fullest” De-Caff you can find, and then add in a bit of something to give it that “Chocolate Zing”!

                                        You also asked about the reliability of the Varia VS3.
                                        I’m was at first getting quite severe movement of the Adjustment Dial. Anthing from ⅓ of a division to almost a whole division for each coffee!

                                        I worked out for myself that the problem lies with the top bearing being esposed to the grinding coffee, both whole beans and coffee grounds. This creates a “torque”
                                        on that bearing, which is directly fed to the Adjustment Collar above. I did some vector diagrams to explain this and sent them to Varia.
                                        An engineer who replied was interested, but when I suggested a very simple separating “washer” would resolve the issue - and could I have one PLEASE - FREE! - a marketing manager then replied and told me “to leave it to them”. I.E. they are not gonna do anything and won’t supply the remedy either…
                                        Big Shame! They SAID that they had resolved this - but they havn’t! It may also affect their new VS6???…

                                        Since writing to Varia, I have reduced the amount of RDT that I use, to only ONE spray, which I then mix in with the beans much more throughly than you see most of the professionals doing. This reduction of RDT, also reduces tha amount that the coffee grounds “gum up” inside, and especially between that bearing and the Grinder Central Burr.
                                        This has reduced the amount of Dial Movement to perhaps ⅕ of a division per coffee.

                                        Also since writing to Varia, I had the Grounds Chute suddenly drop off and fall into the Catch Cup!
                                        No coffee till I had fixed that!!
                                        Upon investigation, I found that the two screws that fix that chute inside the machine are too short! Too short to qualify as acceptable engineering practice! The only have between 1 and 1.5 turns of rotation before they are fully screwed in.
                                        This is unacceptable engineering! And is presumably simply because “stock screws” only come in that length…
                                        Yet again, they could have fixed that by drilling the screw recess holes a little deeper. This is something that the user most probably CANNOT do. I’m a “technical user”, with the knowledge, but not the tools to do THAT job.
                                        Drilling Aluminium produces both dust and “swarf”, which absolutely must not get in the adjustment threads!

                                        I hope this long reply has helped you. Regards - Greg

                                          Giphy - tinkerbell GIF

                                          Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -


                                          MWJB
                                          The data is direct from Varia’s own charts. Their chart is scientifically incorrect, since the data has no “Zero”! It CANNOT have a Zero! You can’t grind coffee with the Burrs touching!!
                                          Also the data doesn’t give information inbetween the points.
                                          Their chart actually shows one of the curves going BELOW zero!! The data itself doesn’t…
                                          As well as “correcting” Varias presentation of the data, I’ve used Excel to present the relative % of the part of the Distribution that is required for good Espresso - BELOW 400 nano meter.

                                          This analysis shows that Coffee Reviewers opinions about the Burrs are often “Counter-Factual”.
                                          The “Black Titanium” Burrs MUST be considered and tested as potentially “the Best for Traditional Espresso”, closely followed by the Gold Titanium. The one’s often favoured by the pundits the “Hypernova” and the “Hpernova Ultra”, just may be good for Light Roasted Espresso’s?? I really wouldn’t know, since I would never drink such a brew…
                                          Of course the two “Hyper” Burrs are more expensive - so the dealers want us to buy them…

                                          Just because a Burr has a “Superior Looking” name, don’t make it better!
                                          Just because a pundit say’s “It’s better for Espresso” don’t make it so! (Especially if that pundit drinks light roasts…)
                                          I bought the “Black Titanium” based on Varia’s data. My experience says that I like it for traditional Espresso with dark roast beans!

                                          P.S. Sorry the charts didn’t come in the correct position in my post - I’m new to this forum, and couldn’t work out how to re-position them.
                                          - - -
                                          About the Burr Diagram, showing my suggested rectification for the Dial Moving issue.
                                          That Washer must be to precise tolerances, the same dimensions as the Bearing. It must be either 1mm or 2mm, or 3mm, not inbetween~, to ensure that the zero marker will be in the right place,
                                          It needs to be made from high quality engineering grade stainless steel, so as not to bend under the constant buffeting within the grinding chanber!
                                          I think that regular 304 steel would bend far too easilly… Especially if just 1mm was tried. 2mm of 304 just MIGHT be strong enough?

                                          The chart for Filter Brews and Drips is in another chart.
                                          For the various Brew methods, the Gold Titanium SHOULD BE looked at as potentially “the Best”…

                                          Regards Greg (Stellar, not because I think I’m great, but because another of my interests is in the Stars - both Astronomy and Sidereal Astrology.)~

                                            A final “plug” for the Black Titanium Burrs, would be about this material Titanium Carbide, (as opposed to the Titanium Nitride, which is in the Gold Titanium).

                                            Titanium Carbide is used the Space Industry for resistance to the temperatures and stresses of re-entry.

                                            If that doesn’t say it’s a “Super” - “Hyper” material then I don’t know what will…

                                            Regards Greg

                                            P.S. Did Varia put the “Hyper” word on the wrong Burrs???????

                                            i apologies if my replies recently come across as a bit arsey,

                                            being away from the social media side of it has been a great breath of fresh air, and not much i see really interests me, i dont need people to tell me what i should be tasting, anymore nor do i need to line their pockets,

                                            im just so over the ever evolving bs of buy the next best thing and people trying to justify you spending huge amounts of money on the latest and greatest, i mean instead of a £1000 grinder change, that buys you some pretty exclusive beans

                                            Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                                            StellarGreg Don’t dismiss the “Black Titanium” version!
                                            Looking at the distribution data that Varia have provided, it gives the MOST fines, and therefore should give the most “traditional” espresso with darker roasts, which are my preference!

                                            I have transferred the data from your chart you posted and made a cumulative chart (hit the link & scroll down), these are easier to read as non-cumulative charts are hard to decipher.

                                            The 0.59% at 1200 for the Iridescent looks a bit anomalous, but then it’s only a tiny fraction of the grinds. Beyond that, however the data was determined, the standard deviations of the grinds depicted look pretty similar, Black is finest, Steel & Plasma seem to be set a bit coarser, irrespective of the number shown on the grinder setting ring.

                                            VS3 grind data

                                            If you see any obvious errors, let me know.