Pompeyexile So you clever lot out there… can something like a toaster still draw electricity if not being used or do we really have to not just switch it off at the wall but completely unplug it to save energy… or is the American article wrong or has my neighbour misunderstood it?

as @Del_UK Not a dumb toaster no, and under new regulations items on standby are not meant to be drawing more than 1 watt. It was a law change possibly from 8-10 years ago.

Del_UK My base load for example is about 225w, and if I turn off all the TV’s etc it drops to 190w, but we’ve only one TV, no Sky boxes, and not much else that has a standby draw.

I have a huge problem with a baseload I have struggled to identify…if I turn everything off, my phantom baseload is still around 128W…I have tracked it down to 3 things I think may be causing it.

  1. Two quartz aqualisa shower pumps, at least 16 years old
  2. Possibly a stuart turner shower pump 9 years old
  3. My inverter aircon/heater unit around 10 years old.

These are the only items I can’t easily turn off or unplug. The Aqualisas want to run from time to time as if on a maintenance schedule, they always have. The stuart turner will run very occasionally when the pressure in the pressure cylinder drops and I am sure the aircon unit is always up to something (thinking)

SurreyAlan waterfall/big filter and an air pump, they use 2Kw day, turning each one off to see what they use, come winter the fountain will be off, maybe one of the others though we have a lot of fish (probably due to the oxygen all this water sloshing about incorporates) and don’t want them dying through lack of oxygen.

I managed to get my pond in balance and although not 100% clear, stays pretty clear all year round and my fish don’t die. I used to run the waterfall (fed by the pressurised filter) 24×7. This was proving expensive even with an efficient hi flow 100W pump. Some months ago I purchased an aerator (to bring up lower level water for aeration). This uses very little power and I now power the pump for 5 hours per day. The water is possibly better oxygenated than before and the bacteria in the filter don’t dry out and die.

and because the airstones will arrive broken, buy this as well

It’s very low consumption 12W and 4 airstones, rather than Y connectors on 2 airstones….which I hope will help the membranes last longer…it certainly gives more air. Hopedully I won’t need to run the pump much at all over the winter.

P.S. I no longer us UV, haven’t for many years…which saves another 35W

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        I hadn’t thought about 4 airstones instead of 2 on Y connectors, I do recall reading that the aerator was the best for raising oxygen levels. The waterfall and fountain are very good at stopping the pond freezing when it gets very cold.

          Anything that breaks the surface with give gas exchange.

          Have you thought of winter plants to add oxygen to the water?

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          This base load thing, are you guys all on smart meter?

          My meter is smart I think, but not connected to anything

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            My motto is No More Plants, my wife’s is you can never have enough plants, guess who wins. The energy bill is insignificant compared to the monthly plant bill.

            SurreyAlan The waterfall and fountain are very good at stopping the pond freezing when it gets very cold.

            I read that the airstones will also do that?

            Cuprajake This base load thing, are you guys all on smart meter?

            My meter is smart I think, but not connected to anything

            My meter has been dumb for 11 out of the 12 years or so it has been fitted. I had it fitted by Ovo, it worked for a year and once I changed suppliers, never worked again. The energy monitor that came with it stopped working for everything except units and a few other things, because the programmers were too stupid to allow me to program my current gas and electric unit rate into it myself. It does know how many units I’m using though and still connects wirelessly to the now dumb meter.

            They were also too fecking stupid to program the energy monitor to show the current meter readings for gas and electric. I can only assume it was programmed by 5 year olds. So I still have to go down, open the cupboards, get on my hands and knees, press 9 and use a bit of paper to write down the readings for each meter. Fecking wankahs

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                Basically, everything which lacks a traditional on/off switch draws a little bit of power (sometimes very little, but over multiple appliances, this adds up).

                In my case, I can lower my power usage to 1 kWh/day when I’m away for some time but not much below due things such as

                • the Freezer (I can switch off the fridge separately which I do when on holidays)
                • the house ventilation system (required to reduce moisture in a modern house
                • the remote receiver for my blinds/velux windows shutters, and all the smart switches/remotes/light bulbs which are connected to the mains
                • all the lights for which the switch is located after the wall wart/power transformer and which can’t easily be unplugged (kitchen counter lights for instance)
                • the gas boiler (even when no gas is used, it monitors temperature to prevent the water from freezing), and electric heaters monitoring temperature for the same reason
                • the oven clock (which I could switch off, but would then need to reprogramme)
                • the power usage monitoring system (which tells me I’m not using any power!)

                Some appliances (such as my Miele washing machine) also lack a true on/off switch for safety reason… there is a small power supply which triggers a relay when the On/off button is pushed… an Idling Osmio system will also draw a bit of power, as will a desktop computer or monitor (unless one toggles the rear physical switches..

                  Yesterday I went around and checked comsumption of devices, such as… DVD/HDD player… 8W, for being on standby, doing nothing. So that was dully unplugged.

                  My fridge and freezer are both rated at 90W each, so they are pretty good, I think.

                    During the last few weeks, we switch off all standby - Micro wave, PCs, TV, etc in the night and if we are going off for the day.

                    We would love to switch off the modem and router switches though in the night. But, it is connecting our phones, Hive, etc.

                    We will check if we can connect the Hive direct to the Virgin router, keep that on and switch off the Cisco switch power in the night. We will lose the wifi, which is manageable.

                      LMSC - hmmm…. It’s only worth switching things off if they are wasteful or useless.

                      Before you go on turning routers and switches off, I’d find how much power they are using first. Convenience has a price in modern society.

                      I give you an example: I have a sound bar that’s always on, on standby. We use it occasionally But it’s not even worth the while turning it off as it uses like 0.2W - 89p per year for being on standby.

                      My example of the DVD player was something I totally overlooked: not only I don’t use it, ever, as most things are available on subscription services these days - it’s also old and clunky. One of those things it’s under the TV and I never thought about unplugging it!

                          I’m just wondering how large the council tax rise will be, as we pay to keep all those offices, library’s, and other council funded places warm and electrified with their uncapped bills. If people think a pub with a 64K electric bill is a lot, you ain’t seen nothing yet.

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                          MediumRoastSteam We turn off power where possible. Turning off the Routers and Network switches is an extreme measure.

                          The router uses 40 W active and Switch 45W active.

                          We also know the switch has an active power management as it switches off unused ports. So, the switch’s active power consumption could be less.

                            Gagaryn Just as a quick update, I worked out that I can start it off the smart plug, as long as I start the cycle (close door and wait for initial beep) before turning off power. Problem was that I forgot to enable the schedule, set it up and left it switched off 🤣. I ended up turning it on at 3:30 as woke up thinking I heard my 5 month old. Good to know it works so will be doing that going forward as every little helps.

                                Alexvs turning it on at 3:30 as woke up thinking I heard my 5 month old

                                For a few months, that’s going to be even cheaper than a smart plug… 😉

                                  LMSC Do you think this is worth it? Air Heat pump is probably cheaper than ground-source heat pump. I thought this still fall short by some margin relying on the gas. Furthermore, one needs to either instal a solar panel or draw electricity from the provider. In our case, the electricity consumes a half of our utility bills.

                                  It depends on the situation I guess vs a gas boiler. I always hear a heat pump with a house insulated as well as your average fridge is cheap to run, but a gas boiler in that same house would be cheaper to run. That a heat pump is up to 4 times more efficient than a gas boiler…though the don’t mention that gas is up to 4 times cheaper. The SCOP figures that are almost 3.8 or 4, but they don’t mention those are only reached with flow temps of 40C.

                                  My situation is this. gas central heating, mostly microbore pipes and rads that are not overly large because they don’t need to be. Putting a heat pump in my house would involve a new water tank, special hot water auxilliary heat pump buffer tanks, replacement of all rads and most of the pipework, involving floors up and external pipework on walls, plus a real mess. Cost of all this, well over £16,000, probably nearer £18,000 (after the grant), because they are effectively putting in a whole new wet system.

                                  I’m not going to pay that to be cold…and run a HP system which you shouldn’t actually turn off, because if the house gets too cold, it takes 5 hours to warm up again. In winter the COP will be horrendous.

                                  So enter the air to air multisplit (using the right refrigerants, currently R32, it would be better still using R717 first used in 1920 ish, but they don’t do that). The COP can be over 5 and the SCOP higher than an air to water system.

                                  The advantage is I only have to have a single cassette unit in the rooms at the junction of the wall meets the ceiling and small holes for the refrigerant pipes. I can leave my radiators or have them removed. Each room is only heated when I need to use it, and the system can be on timers for frost or damp protection. Heating is hot air and essentially warms a room within 10 minutes of switching on an individual unit. The COP is high because it only puts out air at a max of 28 or 30C and you would usually have it set to 22C… You only heat the rooms you need to heat when you need to and they can all be at different temperatures.

                                  It also works as an air conditioning unit as well for cooling individual rooms as required during hot weather, and even has a dry function to remove condensation/humidity if that is required.

                                  I think the cost of installation would be considerably cheaper than an air to water system, even though there are no grants for air to air systems. I also believe it would be considerable cheaper to run than a heat pump. it is my preferred option if they ban gas boilers.

                                  ==========================

                                  For people wanting to turn off their internet routers at night…it can play havoc with certain types of broadband, gfast etc,, causing the system to think it needs to fall back to lower speeds to maintain your connection at a good service level.

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                                      DavecUK My situation is this. gas central heating, mostly microbore pipes and rads that are not overly large because they don’t need to be. Putting a heat pump in my house would involve a new water tank, special hot water auxilliary heat pump buffer tanks, replacement of all rads and most of the pipework, involving floors up and external pipework on walls, plus a real mess. Cost of all this, well over £16,000, probably nearer £18,000 (after the grant), because they are effectively putting in a whole new wet system.

                                      This is what a certified gas enginner-cum-plumber, who came to fix some water leak in the house advised us. He told us we need to spend

                                      • £7.5K for the mega flow - you may as well if you are opening the floor. This cost was before Covid.
                                      • All new pipe works and radiators.
                                      • Air source heat pump + solar panels
                                      • New boilers
                                      • New first floor floor boards
                                      • He also suggested, if doing all these, spend some more and replace all electrical cables and go full blown smart home leveraging the exposed floors.

                                      I would rather repay my mortgage than spending money on all these.

                                      DavecUK For people wanting to turn off their internet routers at night…it can play havoc with certain types of broadband, gfast etc,, causing the system to think it needs to fall back to lower speeds to maintain your connection at a good service level.

                                      !(

                                            LMSC £7.5K for the mega flow - you may as well if you are opening the floor. This cost was before Covid.
                                            All new pipe works and radiators.

                                            Can’t have a megaflow, I have 3 thermostatically controlled pumped showers….which would be thousands down the drain. I am hoping the fruitcake idea of net zero and banning gas boilers gets dumped…madness.

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                                                I was just thinking about commercial energy prices, the amount that pub has been quoted, It might actually be cheaper to get a big commercial quiet run generator and power from that…. Those ones that look like half a caravan on a towed trailer. Make hardly any noise.

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                                                  DavecUK
                                                  Having seen the quote a client git for a 400kVA backup generator last week, I’d beg to differ!

                                                    Diesel usage is astronomical for large generators. The big commercial ones use around 100 litres per hour.

                                                    Well, having spent a few days thinking abound it, yesterday I ordered one of these
                                                    https://burley.co.uk/product/ambience-4121/
                                                    The big advantages are:
                                                    We have no flue so covers that
                                                    Instant heat if we have power cuts
                                                    100% burn efficiency

                                                    We have a fixed rate of 4.38 on gas so even running on full which is unlikely, the cost is 15.3p per hour @3.5 kw output. We have 3 radiators in the room we sit in. We can turn them down to 1, turn the heating off during the day on 4 of the other 5 rads and at night to take the chill off the part of the house we are going to sleep in put the heating on as needed. That sounds a bit vague but until it is fitted we will not actually know. Once fitted I will cover costs etc

                                                    https://www.suddencardiacarrestuk.org/2024/02/thank-goodness-for-madeira-cake/

                                                      dfk41 We will need photos and videos of it working, or it didn’t happen….you can show off the remote control as well.

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                                                        £700M nuclear plant commitment in Suffolk days before stepping down. He could have done that earlier!

                                                        A care home company who usual bill for it’s homes is 90k have been quoted 1mil

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                                                          Cuprajake A care home company who usual bill for it’s homes is 90k have been quoted 1mil

                                                          That’s ridiculous!!

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                                                            I’m no fan of Tony Blair, but he warned about this in 2006/7. he foresaw this type of crisis and wanted Nuclear to become 40% of the UK energy mix, together with renewables.

                                                            https://www.reuters.com/article/us-climate-britain-nuclear-idUSL1573861220070215

                                                            The judge is now Sir Jeremy, we are busy blaming the current government, when actually we need to look hard at the hidden forces that worked to deny us Nuclear power. We wouldn’t have had this problem had the courts not decided how our country should be run. Later various groups many funded by fossil fuel companies and Nick Clegg ensured we wouldn’t have much nuclear, if any.

                                                            ……hence todays mess

                                                            I often hear the green lobby trotting out fusion power…trust me it won’t be in our lifetimes, or our kids lifetimes, if ever!

                                                            P.S. Fossil fuel funds green energy and anti nuclear, because they know green energy absolutely ensures we have to continue using fossil fuels whilst twisting things to pretend we’re net zero.

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                                                            I just had one positive thought about winter coming and energy prices. We’re all probably a bit wary of running our coffee machines in the summer, and they only make the house warmer which we don’t want, all that energy is effectively wasted. Of course in winter we want the house to be warmer so leaving our coffee machine on all day is not the problem it is in summer, all that heat energy transfers back into the house where it’s actually wanted.

                                                            Something positive to think about him otherwise horrible energy situation.

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                                                            That’s the good thing about the cold days, the efficiency of many appliances becomes less relevant (unless the produce things like hot water which goes down the drain while it’s above freezing)

                                                            £170 B rescue plan to freeze energy prices cap is being prepared! Hmm…costing, credibility and the how aspects are to be worked out. The fiscal deficit / open-market operations is the obvious route.

                                                            With a promise to roll back the NI hikes, I am thinking if a long-dated bond offering to the rich businesses, the fund managers and the public is an attractive option. 🤔

                                                            I’m wondering what this means for my fixed-rate, should I actually bin it and go back to the price cap? Will they let us down, u turn in three months and bung up the prices?

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                                                            till jan i have read… but then till 2024 so dunno

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                                                            It’s all up in the air. I think Oct rise is done and dusted. I doubt the government will cap at current levels, although I think they should.

                                                            As far as the sustainability of this measures is concerned, it rests crucially on the chances of a snap election and the outcome of it. I would expect a snap election early next year, if the year end is not possible.

                                                              LMSC rests crucially on the chances of a snap election and the outcome of it. We should see a snap election early next year, if the year end is not possible

                                                              I actually think they would be very stupid to go for a snap election. Mind you perhaps they will believe their own sizzle just like Theresa May did….and that didn’t work out so well. One benefit of an 80 seat majority, they can push policies through. A coalition won’t do anything. As far as the energy issues, there’s a lot needs doing… especially getting rid of net 0 and the banning of petrol vehicles.

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                                                                  DavecUK I actually think they would be very stupid to go for a snap election. Mind you perhaps they will believe their own sizzle just like Theresa May did….and that didn’t work out so well. One benefit of an 80 seat majority, they can push policies through. A coalition won’t do anything.

                                                                  She doesn’t have the people’s mandate. Having been elected as a new PM, she should seek one, IMO. I do not know, if she will go that path.