Areas for improvement in my coffee

Dan

Hello,

I’ve been thinking about purchasing the aillio bullet roaster and their summer sale has prompted me to think a little harder about marginal gains. My set up is decidedly middle of the pile at the moment across the board and wondered what people thought would be best bang for buck to improve the coffee I drink (which includes predominantly milk drinks and a preference for lighter, fruitier roasts). I have the following:

Timemore sculptor 078s

Sage barista express pro

Modded gene cafe roaster

Some of the challenges I face:

I struggle a little with consistency of the espresso shots I pull, they range from 20 - 30 seconds with mostly the same settings, I suspect this is both the result of the grinder and espresso machine. I wdt and try and ensure consistency.

Given I drink milk drinks, I prefer coffees with distinct flavours, rather than being subtle. Which has steered me away of focusing on the espresso machine alone.

Time is definitely of the essence, so the aillio offers better roasting that’s also quicker than back to back gene cafe roasts.

My rational is the roaster will ensure I can get the best from the beans, allowing me to pull distinct flavours from them, while also speeding things up a bit.

dfk41

Dan Just my opinion, but from your description of the kit you own, I think there are other things to spend your hard earned on! Let us just say that beans are the root of your problem. Buying a roaster will take many moons of frustration before you start to get anywhere. If you spent your time (if you are convinced that beans are the issue) searching for a roasted bean supplier that suits your taste requirements then you are way ahead in the game. There is a limit to as to how good a coffee you can produce on a sage barista Pro and if you want to go to the next level, perhaps you could think about upgrading that

Dan

dfk41

Thanks! I enjoy the roasting process, so I will
Always roast them myself, either on the gene cafe, or the new roaster. Though the fact the expresso machine might be the constraining factor is interesting.

dfk41

Dan I used to roast on a modded Gene Cafe years ago. Roasting then was not what it is now! I gave up because I quickly realised that I enjoyed the roasting proccess (although my neighbours not so much!) but the end result in the cup was never great. Now that is not to say others might have far better skill sets that I!

My comment on your machine……if you have a 5 litre bottle, then no matter how much you want, you can only fit 5 litres in. If you need to store 8 litres then you need a larger bottle. I have had several Sage machines (probably 6 or 7) over the years. The Dual Boiler is a very capable machine with a large hidden menu system allowing you to do many interesting things with temperature and pre infusion pressure. But……they do not have a reputation for longevity unfortunately. You may be able to find one on special or with an extended warranty.

The Sage machines comply with EY legislation meaning they auto switch off after a certain period of time. That is not always a good thing in the coffee world as after 20 minutes many machines are not yet at temperature. Anyway, sorry for the lecture!

DavecUK

Dan I think using good beans, high quality ones and as long as they are roasted well will bring a great deal of improvement. David made a valid point that roasting well is hard and takes a lot of experience. If you are buying beans, unless you are buying whole sacks, you are not paying anywhere near wholesale and buying smaller quantities makes them almost as expensive as buying coffee from a roaster.

It also means that if you want good speciality quality green beans, your probably going to need to pay £25 to £30 per Kg for them!

Great beans may well then show up any limitations in your kit, which is most likely to be the Sage Barista Pro. It’s the first thing I would change and look toward a dual boiler. I don’t know much about the Timemore grinders.

Dan

Thanks, helpful suggestions!

I’ve not had any of the drawbacks of the timemore that others have suggested (retention, stalling etc). Though I do think it has been contributing to the inconsistency in the shot times. Compared to the in built grinder in the sage, it has been a remarkable upgrade.

On the greens available, I’ve found I can find some good ₈₇ 88 sca coffees close to my preferences below £20 per kg. Though I do recognise I can’t source the best beans unless buying in larger amounts (see the other thread).

I think likely the roaster is the way to go!

dfk41

Dan Why don’t you buy a few kilos of greens, then select a few folks to receive 250 gms each, then let them tell you how good your roasting is! I quite agree that good quality beans is the way to go, but below £20 per kg you are not in the arena of good quality beans. To make consistently good coffee you need to have consistent temperature, grinding, tamping and beans. You can buy SCA beans graded at whatever you like, but it does not mean that either yourself or the roaster that you buy them from are able to replicate the profile or outcome!

Cuprajake

before i spent a penny i would go buy some good beans from a respected roaster, something like tim wendlebow - try them, see if theres a big difference in what you are making yourself,

then and only then would i look to change things, fwiw temperature control is key with coffee, id make sure your machine can do that, before looking at beans, if you want validation to buy a new roaster i give you my backing haha

Dan

Cuprajake if you want validation to buy a new roaster i give you my backing haha

That’s what I was after 😅

@dfk41, do you mean green beans below £20 per kg are not good quality beans? That surprises me a little as it seems equivalent to the £35-40 per kg beans from popular roaster. For example (I think) you can get the rocko Mtn beans from django and the greens from pennine at £19 per Kg.

dfk41

Dan I guess it comes down to perception as to how you define good beans.

DavecUK

Dan @dfk41, do you mean green beans below £20 per kg are not good quality beans? That surprises me a little as it seems equivalent to the £35-40 per kg beans from popular roaster. For example (I think) you can get the rocko Mtn beans from django and the greens from pennine at £19 per Kg.

At 19 per Kg, you are getting beans costing £5 or £6 per kg + all in costs for them to get the beans and bag them up, then the profit they need to make. Plus delivery.

I buy wholesale in large 60 or 70Kg sacks and it costs me £10+ per kg…these roasters would sell roasted for £30-40 per Kg

HarveyMushman

Bear in mind the Aillio has a lengthy warmup/cooldown time compared to the small roasters.

I considered one to roast quicker than my Ikawa but you’re looking at 25-30 min warmup.

JammyDodger

Sorry to be a downer on your roaster quest but I agree with Jake. If you can get everything you want in the cup with your current set up by switching to well-roasted beans, then a new roaster is the key to fixing you current problem. If you can’t, a new roaster won’t fix the more fundamental issues with your set up.

I’m with Dave on getting a new espresso machine first, then maybe a new grinder, then switching up the roaster.

Cuprajake

Crap coffee on a kees van der westen is still crap coffee

JammyDodger

Cuprajake

Cuprajake c.rap coffee on a kees van der westen is still c.rap coffee

Completely agree. It’s not something I really realised until I’d been making coffee at home for a while, but you need to have a good machine, grinder and source of beans before everything consistently falls into place. I think that may be why it can be so frustrating when people are just starting. Not to say you can’t make good coffee on more entry-level equipment, but doing it repeatably it hard.

Cuprajake

Since when ha c r a p been a swear word 🤣

dfk41

Putting it nicely, everything has its limit. You have probably reached the limit on your current roaster, and are therefore quite correct in the need to upgrade. Equally, the same applies to all other elements in your coffee kit. If you upgrade your roaster first, and in time produce stellar beans, your existing kit still limits you as to what you can produce. I would personally change your grinder first. There is plenty of choice sub £1000 and that grinder will take your forward for many a year. Then I would upgrade your machine in the same way…….then the roaster. It is highly unlikely in my humble, that you will be able to produce better beans than a GOOD roaster, so why not just find a roaster you enjoy and drink their offerings meanwhile………..or of course you can just scratch your itch

JHCCoffee

@Dan Yes, I concur with all that a machine upgrade may help, as it will allow you (depending upon the machine) to control key variables throughout the shot. And learn their impacts on taste.

You need to be able to control temperature and ideally flow (through pressure), during the pre-infusion, commencement, full flow and tail of the shot. And the time duration of each phase.

A lever machine will allow you to do the above manually, in combination with an accurate scale with timer. An automated machine (like a Lelit Elisabeth) will allow you to control all but flow. A Lelit Bianca adds flow control. My Decent DE1 allows complete control of all.

If you have the budget for a Lelit E, I would strongly recommend that you stretch to buy a Lelit Bianca, to get flow control and generally better machine quality.

Fyi, while well designed, the Lelit E definitely has some parts design flaws, such as its OPV and its steam knob and valve. You get what you pay for.

JHCCoffee

And yes, it is (first) about bean quality and roasting expertise. I drink decaf and at most 20% of roasters know how to roast decaf. 5% do it well.

JHCCoffee

PS I recall reading that larger flat burr grinders (in the 78 to 83 mm range) can be more inconsistent than 64mm burr grinders. Perhaps others can shed light on this.