Mazzer Philos or Niche Duo (or other)

nufc1

I’m on the hunt for a new grinder to upgrade (or complement… not sure yet) my Niche Zero. I’m looking at flat burrs and I’m drinking mainly light to medium light roasts. I’m mostly looking for this for high(er) clarity espresso on the Bianca. I prefer hand-grinding for pour over and have a ZP6. Saying that, the grinder being capable of good pour-overs would be a bonus.

I’m primarily looking at the Philos or the Duo, leaning more towards the Philos with the I200D burrs. From what I’ve read, these burrs can do light roast espresso and pour-over very well with good clarity.

Not sure if anyone here has hands-on experience with both grinders but any opinions welcome to help me make up my mind. If anyone has experience of the I200D burrs for lighter roasts, i’d love some first hand reviews from proper (not influencer) users. From what I’ve read, I don’t think either of these grinders would be a poor choice for my use case.

Also, if there are any alternatives at similar price-points (<£1000), and without a giant wait-list, I’m all ears!

Cheers!

dfk41

nufc1 All you are going to do, is be told that the respective owners think whatever grinder they have is superior. You are really comparing 83mm burrs with 64mm. You are also comparing a grinder that has one espresso burr and one filter burr to a grinder where folks seem happy to buy then shell out more dosh for additional burrs. There is nothing wrong with that of course. In my humble, I really question how many owners are really capable of differentiating these perceived differences. There is quite a difference on cost to factor in as well. Personally, I have had a couple of Duo’s and found them ok. I have not had a Philos so cannot really comment, but, I do think it is an expensive grinder for a 64mm burr size.
I think @Adrianmsmith and also @HarveyMushman have had both on the bench at the same time. I also know someone whose view I really respect cannot be persuaded to road test a Philos, but be that as it may!

Adrianmsmith

dfk41 I think @Adrianmsmith and also @HarveyMushman have had both on the bench at the same time. I also know someone whose view I really respect cannot be persuaded by a to road test a Philos, but be that as it may!

@nufc1 Well yes i have!!

Now then, ive grown a little more sinical over the last couple of years after listening to the likes of Lance changing his opinions and views depending on what month it is and what he is reviewing (other Lances are available) but still they remain popular.

Then theres this word that jeeps appearing… “best”.

Best is very illusive and ive tried best before and hated it. Best coffee ever and after one sip that was it for me!! Best is kess common than common sense!!

The only way to get the best is to try it for yourself.

Yes that gets expensive, believe me, i know!

Especially when you keep trying the best in the wrong order .

The 2 Worst grinders i have had are sage, breville smart grinder pro and DF83v2.

Both dreadful, inconsistent, horribly.

Yet, someone will be reading this saying ive had one for 3 years and to me it perfect . Their respective adverts say they are .

All i can suggest is get in your mind what you think is a good grinder for you and your way if thinking.

Watch reviews and do not listen to the views of the reviewer other than comments on the mechanics and build quality. Comments about the coffee are to me almost worthless.

Theres a common laugh on here about David not having a refined pallet.

Well, I too possibly am in the same boat. My pallet is the one i was born with.

Its the only one that is going to tell my brain whet it thinks about the stuff currently swilling around in my mouth .

No matter how much James or people in this forum for that matter tell me how good a certain coffee is, thats not going to change which i love or hate and the only way to know which is which, as with the grinder, is, buy some!

You mentioned hand grinding. My favourite grinder is still the Craig Lyn HG-1 prime . Currently not in use due to lack of space. If the Key ever sells, it will be back!!

If you buy a duo or a philos or a t64ssp there will be nothing wrong with the coffee in the cup

If, like me, you buy one and wonder what the difference would be with another, you have to buy it to see. I did get talked out of buying an EG-1 by someone who “has one under his bench”, possibly the same guy David says wont review the Philos 😎🤔 I did since buy a Kafatek flat max 2! Even that could be made cheaper if they did away with the unnecessary, added by public demand, variable speed control .

One area where i do not agree with opinion is , to me, the Philos is incredible value for its build . Its £880 landed in the UK . Not a bargain but a great price for what it is . Some way more expensive 64mm grinders are receiving high praise by some but dont appeal to me.

As I said, just my opinion. Im not about to start slagging off any particular cheap nasty chinese made and marketed grinders, but they are expensive in comparison, TO ME . Machining and thread cutting on some i have owned have been diabolical. But they are made cheap and that is what a lot if people seem to favour .

Cheap is better than quality to a lot of general public . not to me!!

Id agree mostly with what Harvey has said above.

I did note the duo retains more fragments than the Philos when grinding Decaf beans and i did ultimately sell the Duo .

I have to sell one when i buy another (the key is proving difficult to sell but its also great to keep using. Currently the Philos is sat idle. Im using the Kafatek for me and the key for Decaf.

I have to use the new one for a while prior to selling .

Ive sold smart grinder pro, niche zero, DF83v2, T64, 1zpresso J and K ultra.

I have both burrs for the Philos and some SSP on loan i must get around to trying. I prefer the 200 for my flat white as im strange and not keen on mouth feel although in isolation the 197 are very palatable. Im expecting the SSP to land in the middle, so some would say, dont bother trying as you know your outcome, but the middle may turn out to be perfect.

Sometimes its difficult to say why you do not like something, just an itch that won’t go away

BEST is a very big choice of taste feeling and looks. never buy a white grinder!!

Of the grinders i have owned if i had to live with one and i didnt get to choose, so long as it was NOT df83 or smart grinder, i would be making great coffee for ME and my wife . Noone else really matters.

So, let us know how you like the Philos when you buy it😎

Do not buy it from one if the rip off 3rd party sellers on Google!

HarveyMushman

I’ve had both. Currently have the Philos and can’t really see ever upgrading (for my tastes). Admittedly I didn’t have the Duo for long and I’ve had the Philos for about 9 months.

I use it for a couple of filter brews and a couple of espresso per day (often milk based). Usually medium-light roasts.

Here’s my honest opinion; if you only drink espresso (especially straight espresso) or only filter and favour clarity in your coffee, I’d say the Duo is probably better than the Philos. 83mm burrs are just a better option for this kind of result.

If you favour milk based espresso and enjoy a slightly thicker mouthfeel I’d say the Philos wins but that isn’t to say the Duo is bad because it also does milk based espresso very well.

For me, the decider is if you switch between filter and espresso multiple times a day, the Philos is a clear winner.

I tried this with the Duo and had two issues. Firstly the espresso burr isn’t great for filter (it doesn’t claim to be to be fair) so you need to switch burrs, also there’s enough retained chaff and filter grind that it will cause the subsequent espresso extraction to gush and underextract. This is largely due to the absence of any ‘knocker’ to clear the chute and is just the nature of static-susceptible filter grinds. You can help it by giving the chute a firm tap but it often doesn’t completely clear it.

The other factor is that the Philos I200 burr is incredibly good for both espresso and filter. Good balanced clarity and mouthfeel and excellent at both filter and espresso.

For me, I prefer the how the Philos looks although that’s entirely subjective and to be honest I think there are better looking grinders than both of them.

Trying to be objective. As @dfk41 rightly said there will be some owner bias but the above is my experience with both. I also agree the Philos is relatively expensive. I don’t think it’s bad value, but obviously an expensive 64mm grinder.

dfk41

Adrianmsmith What about the fact that to get the best from the Philos you have to ditch the stock burrs? Is that included in the £880 price tag?

Jason1wood

Adrianmsmith I drink flat whites and mostly milk based drinks, medium/dark espressos, no filter drinks either. Having both sets of burrs, would you say the 189 or 200 would be best for me to order as only going to order one set, and have the SSPs in my DF 64 grinder to try also.

I know it’s a personal thing but have read the 189s are best for my drinking style

HarveyMushman

dfk41 What about the fact that to get the best from the Philos you have to ditch the stock burrs? Is that included in the £880 price tag?

This is absolutely not true. If I’m going to make any strong points in this thread it’s that the I200D burr is one of the best burrs on the market. I’ve used Mazzer, MK, SSP and Fellow burrs over the past 15 years and the I200 is a revelation. I don’t mind sounding dramatic there because it’s top notch.

We shouldn’t be surprised here obviously because we know Mazzer make a good burr. Given they’re in probably 95% of all popular consumer preferred grinders to come to market in the past 10 years.

I get the impression @Adrianmsmith added other burrs as a curiosity more than anything and there’s a number of owners here who will vouch for the quality of the I200. On top of that, I’m not even sure third party burrs work brilliantly in the Philos without shimming or faffing.

Perhaps there are better burrs for straight espresso clarity but then for the price, there are just better grinders, as per my first post.

If anything, the biggest reason to buy the Philos is ‘native’ access to that burr.

Adrianmsmith

dfk41

Where did you read that

First time ive read this

I have ssp to try but am NOT expecting them to be better than the stock mazzer burrs to be honest.

Definately not true about having to ditch them

" HarveyMushman I’ve used Mazzer, MK, SSP and Fellow burrs over the past 15 years and the I200 is a revelation "

🥰

Also the reason I’ve not tried the ssp burrs yet is im waiting for the correct O rings prior to doing so

Mazzer are so confident in their Burrs the others dont quite fit 😎🤪 Jim even loves them.

LMSC

I do not have Philos, so can’t compare or comment. I upgraded from JX Pro to Duo from Day 1 of its release and do not regret it. I drink a lot of filter and occasional espressos during the week and espressos only during week ends.

I have never seen left over filter grinds (mainly chaffs) causing issues with my espressos. They are too insignificant to cause any disruptions for me, IMHO. I make it a point to clean the chamber, the chute and the burrs when I swap espressos to filter.

nufc1

Thanks for the information all.

@dfk41 , I agree with what you say. Everyone will likely be biased based on what they own. I’d information from someone who has owned both of these is sometimes useful, although can be subjective. As you mention, not everyone would be able to tell the difference between these grinders in cup and almost certainly not if they weren’t side-by-side testing. However, if someone has had both machines, there might be some other factors other than subjective taste which differentiate the grinders which I do not know about.

@HarveyMushman, you bring up a good point. I drink filter and espresso drinks every day and therefore the ability to switch between one and another quickly does interest me, even though I do like hand grinding for filter. Maybe that’s partly down to my previous grinders being a Mignon and the Zero which, in my opinion, never excelled in filter coffee (not that they suggest they’re great for that). I’ve heard a lot of praise about the I200D burr.

@Adrianmsmith , as you say, it is down to personal preferences. Glad to hear I won’t have consistency issues with these grinders as you stated you had with the DF83. I did look at the DF grinders but would like to purchase a grinder I’ll keep for many years and not get tired of and I don’t see the DF grinders in this category (of course, I might be wrong… I’ve never owned one). I think I agree with you. For what the machine brings, the build quality, alignment, tolerances and performance, I think it’s a good price. Sure, it’s only a 64mm, but there’s never a decisive answer as to whether bigger burrs mean better burrs. It’s always a ‘higher potential’ etc. Burr geometry matters far more in my opinion… a crude analysis of the smaller ZP6 burr compared to the larger Niche Zero conical shows me larger isn’t always better (at least for conicals). Obviously this example is a bit apples with oranges… but you get the idea.

Glad to hear the positive opinions of the I200D burr.

HarveyMushman

If you’re switching regularly then the Philos is what I’d recommend.

Before I got the Philos, I was also hand grinding for filter with the excellent Commandante and then had the even more excellent Fellow Ode 2. It’s nice just having one grinder on the counter.

Technically the Duo will do both, but you need to swap the burrs and clean the grind path. Not a mammoth task but sort of incomparable with just using one burr set and a grinder that has an anti-static helper and knocker built in.

Trying to remain unbiased. I had no reason to dislike the Duo and I think it’s brilliant, if it did what I wanted it to do I’d have kept it. Definitely couldn’t fault it on the build quality or perceived longevity. Niche were also really good to deal with.

I think in either case you’re going to end up with a great grinder.

dfk41

@nufc1 I think the solution is to try and get the chance to use both grinders then make your mind up

HarveyMushman

Yeah definitely worth checking out both. Or even just any 83 vs a 64. They’re quite different and many people prefer one over the other.

Adrianmsmith

@nufc1 where are you located

Jason1wood

Bought the DF64 V2 with SSP burrs but still hankering a Philos.

If you get the philos, @nufc1 I’d happily have a look as sure by your name, you’re Newcastle based. Same as @dfk41 and myself. 😉

Adrianmsmith

Jason1wood

In theory at least the 189 should be the preferred for yourself and for me.

I preferred the 200 but were not talking good and bad, night and day. And ive not done a lot of head to head testing. Ideally id need 2 complete grinders to do meaningful comparisons

Its similar to the song, I got a feeling, that these burrs are going to be the best burrs, but ….!!

Again in isolation both are great .

If you were not so far away by that monstrosity of the north (the steel one) or if youre heading past derby / nottingham you’re free the give it a road test. Im still tossing coins which to try and sell, philos or Key or both. Philos is currently not in daily use as i think (?) We’re preferring the Key for decaf and im itching to get the prime back in use .

Again id stress, out of the grinders were currently discussing on this thread theres no outright BAD or WRONG decisions and anyone who was to questioned, is the Kafatek worth 3 x Philos, a lot of the answer is down to knowing how and where it is made. You cant quantify the coffee in the cup being 3 x better. Id love to be invited to a tasting if anyone can show otherwise. Consistency and cup to cup is all great.

From my really limited experience the jump from breville smart grinder to zero was the night and day jump. And the DF83v2 was the bad, beter tester (!) experience!!

Really oversold and definately stereotypically chinese . Philos is worth 3x this easily. 🤪😎

Jason1wood

Having just ordered the Odessey Argo lever I’d like a really decent grinder to pair with it. Have seen many pics of the Zerno paired with the Argo and looks great. I’m thinking the philos would also too.

As moving in with girlfriend, she’s accepting my hobby but aesthetics are down to her so a small footprint and stainless steel are her preferences haha.

So looking at the stainless Philos the internals have to be right for me. 😉

HarveyMushman

Jason1wood

The Zerno looks really nicely designed. Shame it’s ridiculously expensive to get it here in the UK.

Jason1wood

HarveyMushman yeah exactly. That’s why I’m thinking Philos 🤔

MAXTHEDOG

Dfk41:

What about the fact that to get the best from the Philos you have to ditch the stock burrs? Is that included in the £880 price tag

I’ve only seen it advertised at around £1450, is the £880 a special ’in at the ground floor’ price?

MtD

Adrianmsmith

MAXTHEDOG

https://shop.mazzer.com/en-gb/products/philos-gb

Took 23 seconds on Google!!

The only place tou should consider purchasing from .

dfk41

MAXTHEDOG Morning Max! I suspect that you are US. Due to the distance and cost the US model seems to be to buy through a dealer network. In Europe it is different and a lot of manufacturers are now trying to sell direct to the public. With there being no dealer profit to factor in, the consumer pays 30 to 40% less. But in the event of an issue, thy have to deal directly with the factory…..hence the price discrepancy