Part of being a member of the LM club is that people will regularly tell you you paid a lot for a ‘simple’ machine.
Neglecting to consider the fact that it’s temperature engineering, one of the most crucial factors in successful coffee prep, is about the furthest from simple it can be compared to probably 95% of other machines on the market.
La Marzocco Linea Mini - Mazzer Philos
Ikawa Roaster
Asa far as i remember the machine that i got was tested from me and Dave, i had a different point of view from Dave because he tried to set a single setting for flat pressure and variable ones, i set two different pid parameters for flat or variable, it’s up to you. Also i remeber that when i got the machine it makes over pressure with and without the steam. My test with flat pressure was made just to check if there is something wrong with steam. The machine that i got had a problem also of return water due of one way valve that not close perfectly and i add another one. No i don’t know if this is the same case of the other 3 machines.
Paolo_Cortese My machine had this issue of water returning to the deposit. I changed not just the one way valve but the whole water distributor. That is solved now.
My machine does not overshoot without steam under 120º. Never. @kautivo ’s machine neither overshooted without steam pressure when arrived home, exactly as mine.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to change pid settings to go for a flat or variable profile as every (or almost every) Vesuvius owner will use, at least, a two stages profile, pre + plain. Anybody here using a one step profile with his Vesuvius? Whats the point of looking for an exclusive plain profile pid setting?
And yes, we can be fine with a plain 9 bar profile and steam at 130º tweaking pid settings but, for the moment, we can’t do the same with a “normal” vesuvius pressure profile. I hope this is just a step to get to the problem and solve it but it’s still far to be fine.
Why is not possible to have the machine working properly with factory pump settings?
I have had sold mine (“por cuatro perras”. Translation: a little money). The buyer will not use the steam. In my case, after four years of daily use, I learned to manage the overshooting problem in the morning: a little annoying routine of switching off/on the steam boiler before making coffee was not a really problem for me. For me the problem is not knowing what really cause it. I also would like to think that you are going to solve it, but sincerelly, I have lost hope. But for people with your knowledge it shouldn’t be a problem. I know that you manage different hypothesis, and you have the videos, the info and other vesuvius machines in the factory.
yeah that’s true, the only thing is that i’m not saying that he bought an expensive simple machine. Everyone can buy whatever he want with their money, the only thing is that the problem faced have nothing to do with temperature but with profiling in some conditions and of course you cannot compare the two machines.
In any case back to several years ago we shipped a machine in the US and Homebarista did a test comparing with a Marzocco Strada EP 2 groups (at that age the Vesuvius was the only single group available). So comparing a machine that cost 4 times more than another it’s a bit funny especially because they compared a machine with different group, one it’s an old E61 group with a personalized group. I post the link so if you are curious you can look at the result of the test. Vesuvius Espresso Machine Review (home-barista.com)
I didn’t mean you saying it just lot’s of other people say it about LM machines because they don’t have many features but the way the group works is very very good.
I wonder, how come more companies don’t make machines with integrated/saturated group? I think Dalla Corte were doing something like this in around 2007 but today E61 still seems the main group for many many dual boiler machines. It seems like machines that had all the great features like the Vesuvius, with a modern group, would be amazing?
La Marzocco Linea Mini - Mazzer Philos
Ikawa Roaster
i can speak about us not for the others. Makes a group it’s a big investment and not often the result are the best, i can tell you about different companies that have a different group than the E61 but not perform as it should. There are a lot of companies that assemble machines that are similar than others but in a different case. You are, and not only you, a satisfied LM customer, there are also some unsatisfied and this is more strange due of semplicity of the system where you can change few parameters and it’s very rare that you can go wrong. I can tell you that i have some customers that changes a Decent machine where you can set whatever you want for one of our lever machine, where you can change just the temp and preinfusion pressure and are really happy. I can undestand also why other people say that LM it’s very expensive, but it’s a bit like the watches, there are some with a lot of functions, really precise but cost a fraction of a Rolex that tell you only the time. The most important thing is to enjoy for what you have paid. In this price range a coffee machine it’s not just a thing to make a coffee but a part of own passion and for that in most case people that doesn’t have the same passion cannot understand why you will spent 6/7K euro for a setting just to make a couple of coffee daily.
Paolo_Cortese the only thing is that the problem faced have nothing to do with temperature but with profiling in some conditions
I do not want to take this further and won’t post anything else but just to be sure, what do you mean with “profiling in some conditions”? My Vesuvius performance was spotless in any condition. I use to have two profiles “to go” and have experimented a lot with others: shorter, longer, lever like and so on. In every case the machine performs well. With this very same profiles, with the very same pid settings, the very same coffee, filters, puck prep, etc, because I’m who makes espresso at home, with all this unchanged BUT with the steam boiler hot, the machine fails. No matter if it’s the first espresso of the day, the second or the last one. Believe me, I have tried everything and the only fact that remains the same is the different behaviour depending on service boiler temperature.
tocateclas BUT with the steam boiler hot, the machine fails. No matter if it’s the first espresso of the day, the second or the last one. Believe me, I have tried everything and the only fact that remains the same is the different behaviour depending on service boiler temperature.
Is the brew water preheat system on when this happens (HX on setting). As this could be the only possibility, not certainty that back pressure from the HX tube may make the PID behave oddly with respect to pressure. Although even at 130C only around 1.7 bar is the push force required to overcome it (possibly more if the expansion of that very small amount of cold water in the HX tube causes a higher pressure momentarily). The pump would then move to a high pressure briefly to overcome it.
HX on is a setting for cafes, not home use, so it should never be used otherwise.. With HX on, the way to the group closes after the shot, and the systyem is sealed again.
HX off closes the route via the HX tube and water routes around the service boiler to the group. The only way I can think that a similar issue “might” happen as with HX on is if the solenoid that prevents water entering the HX tube is leaking back slightly and raising the pressure in the other side of the system… in between any 1 way valve and the solenoid leading to the brew boiler.
The lower temp of 120C, may be insufficient to raise the pressure enough to cause the issue?
All guesswork?
Thank you @DavecUK .
No, HX is been always off. I tried with hx on just to check if there was any variance but there was no difference being on or off.
As you told me a couple of years ago (if I remember well) HX could be a cause, I replaced this solenoid just to be safe (beside right panel, next to the steam boiler). Apart from this solenoid I replaced the water distributor and auto fill solenoid, everything on this piece but the pressure sensor.
tocateclas pressure sensor.
Swiss made, don’t seem to go wrong…I really am out of ideas.
DavecUK Not a pressure sensor problem, I’m sure it’s not.
Regarding your concern about the HX and despite knowing it’s properly closed by the solenoid: could it by bypassed or cut? I mean if there is any chance to block this hx circuit and let the brew circuit shorter and free from its possible incidence. Sorry it this is a nonsense, I’m not a technician!
tocateclas Regarding your concern about the HX and despite knowing it’s properly closed by the solenoid: could it by bypassed or cut? I mean if there is any chance to block this hx circuit and let the brew circuit shorter and free from its possible incidence. Sorry it this is a nonsense, I’m not a technician!
Yes this could be done.
DavecUK Thank you again. If it’s not too complicated it would be nice to try. I don’t know if this makes any sense but there are not many things to try.
tocateclas Thank you again. If it’s not too complicated it would be nice to try. I don’t know if this makes any sense but there are not many things to try.
You need to ask the factory how as it might depend on your build and Paolo recently saw your machine.
Is said machine in the UK? do you still own the machine?
Jony No, machines are in Spain. Mine was sold but it’s nearby, I really hope it could be solved as this is a great machine.
tocateclas @Jony tocateclas @jony could ride back with that on his shoulders :)
Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -
Maybe not 😀
DavecUK i have both machines, my brother bought the vesuvius @tocateclas then i’m intetesting to resolve the problem in both machines, let me know the way to test canceling this hx valve, Paolo can you send video or the steps to block the valve?
DavecUK Correct me please if I’m wrong. I do not have the machine so I can not take a look inside. About how the HX works: there is the solenoid on the right side of the machine, the one I changed. This valve is letting the water to pass through the hx but there is no valve in the other end of the steam boiler? Am I right? In this case the hx would be always full of water? Then it can expand when heated and push in some place the brew circuit causing the issue? If this was the case I’m quite confident in this is what happens in these machines.
It seems to have an easy fix then, just hope this was the cause.
tocateclas Then it can expand when heated and push in some place the brew circuit causing the issue? If this was the case I’m quite confident in this is what happens in these machines.
No, this won’t be happening, during a shot everything is open if HX is on and that hydraulic pressure caused by heating water becomes a non-issue, it also causes no pump back pressure.
DavecUK Thank you. Sorry for my English… I meant if this hx has some contact with the brew circuit when hx is off.
tocateclas I meant if this hx has some contact with the brew circuit when hx is off.
You need to read my earlier post about the theory of what might be happening because I am sure you have misunderstood it.
I am not concerned about any leakage to the sealed brew circuit as such in the way you mean…I’m worried about the pump trying to overcome Hydraulic pressure due to water expansion behind a non return valve.
Can anyone with this machine tell me what their is like as I think I’m loosing it.
I am under impression the steam boiler pressure drops lower and recovers much slower during steaming than it used to. I had it set at 125c and recently found I had to increase to 127c which is still not whatnot should be.
I flush and wait for it to come back to 127c before starting to steam. Only 160ml milk in the pitcher.
It falls to 122c before you notice it starting to recover although you can hear the boiler kick in around 125c.
I hope it’s just my mind playing games but I am convinced it wasn’t like that.
mailto:kafar@btinternet.com
prezes Check your advanced settings because it sounds as if the steamboiler is behaving more like a PID control than on/off control. You need to set the PID parameters for the steamboiler to behave like an/off controller.
prezes if that’s settings for the steam boiler, change them to kP =20, kI=0 and kD= 0
is there an associated B setting for the steam boiler?
DavecUK I’m sorry Dave I had to double check. The above are brew boiler settings.
Steam boiler:
mailto:kafar@btinternet.com
prezes make the same changes I suggested. With those setting it’s acting like a PID, which you don’t want and possibly dropping the power by up to 20%
So it definitely acts differently. I’ve got it set at 126c yet it goes up to 128c and then slowly comes back to 126c. When steaming it still falls but now not lower than 123c
mailto:kafar@btinternet.com
DavecUK yes, it seems to behave mich better now. Thanks for your help Dave.
mailto:kafar@btinternet.com
Looking as this issue that Prezes was experiencing, it seemed a bit familiar, as I’ve noticed my steam pressure and temp not being able to sustain itself in a way that I remember. My steam boiler PID settings were exactly what his was (as they are the default from the factory according to the manual). I made the changes that Dave suggested and it definitely helped retain the temp and pressure throughout the steaming of milk. Thanks Dave!!!
Given that it helped, it does make me curious why the default settings were letting the PID control it via its algorithm vs just a binary on/off.
Pete
ACS Vesuvius, Evo Leva, Minima, Cafelot Robot
Qty 2, Femobook A68, Niche Zero
Arc800 RTD Roaster
sketchy I second that as was meant to ask the same thing. What makes me wonder as well is why does this develop with time and is not an issues that is there on new machine with the original settings.
mailto:kafar@btinternet.com
That’s good to know
If by any chance you have time please @DavecUK it would be good to get your thoughts on the “best” settings
Below are what was set on my V1 and V2 Evo
No actual current issues I’m aware of, just curious 😻
Ade Smith. ACS Evo Leva v2. Kafatek Flat max 2, ssw 2024. Mazzer Philos, Craig Lyn HG-1 prime., WW key mk1.
prezes Doing a bit more investigation on this, against what the default settings were (especially P & D), I’m suspecting the default PID settings paired with the capabilities of the boiler (size vs the mount it is heating) are to help prevent a more severe oscillation that may occur with the new settings. But I’m thrilled with being able to maintain steam boiler pressure better.
Pete
ACS Vesuvius, Evo Leva, Minima, Cafelot Robot
Qty 2, Femobook A68, Niche Zero
Arc800 RTD Roaster
sketchy I really thought the vacuum breaker already exited into the drip tray. Do you wanna check and make sure you haven’t got it wrong and trace the pipes.
