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  • Numpty Question du Jour - Leveler or traditional tamp?

Doram we are trying to help,

Oh, I understand that, and I do appreciate all comments. And I mean, all.

Looking back, my replies to Rob might look to be a bit sharp. That was not my intent. The intent was explain why I looking for a tamping-less solution. For most people, probably 99.999%, a light tamp is not an issue of any sort. I’m in the other 0.001% and I was trying to explain why I’m not looking to experiment with solutions that involve tamping.

That broken finger? Know what I was doing? Walking across a room. I didn’t hit it, knock it, stress it, nothing. Didn’t think much of it either. It was “Owww!”, and I moved on with my day. But when after a couple of weeks, and with one other issue, I eventually went to my GP I got referred straight to a surgical assessment unit at the hospital, and hours later, a bone biopsy (which was great fun - not). That’s how the diagnosis was made.

Sure, the pinky is a tiny bone, but the fact that it snapped from what appears to have been normal muscular tension shows how careful I have to be, and why I’m tamp-averse, why I’m looking at a leveler-only solution, or even Puqpress. Explaining that is the tone I was aiming at. I may have missed.

      CoffeePhilE

      Unfortunately, there is a risk associated with any of the tamper-less choices you are going to have to make. Feedback from current users of these options would only lower the risk of a waste investment not eliminate it. If it is not for you, you could sell them off a little lower and cut your losses.

      Re-puqpress, I would, if I were you, drop a PM to @SL01 and request him to share his experiences; perhaps, you may request him if he would try pulling a few shots without tamping and share the outcome.

      I know he and his family drink only dark roasts. He is so meticulous in his puck preparation; I would, personally, trust his judgement of the experiment. But, that’s just me. At the end of the experiment, what works for him, may or may not for you.

      I know, I am being far from helpful. 😊

          LMSC I know, I am being far from helpful. 😊

          But you are. Seriously. So is Rob.

          Rob’s “try it” isn’t really the direction I’m looking to go in but any suggestion gets me thinking. It’s funny in a way, but in trying to explain to him why I don’t want to do that. I’m also explaining it to myself. Weird, right? I think it goes like this. My gut says “Not what I want”, but in trying to explain that, one of two things happens - either I end up clarifying why my gut says that, which helps resolve that issue in my own head, or …. I can’t explain it, in which case I end up changing my mind, and my gut feeling can suck one. 😁

          So, all suggestions help, even if I end up rejecting some.

          That’s really what this whole thread (and much of several others) are about - clarifying my thinking, seeing if you guys (with way more knowledge and experience) come up with ideas or approaches I hadn’t thought of. The internet is a funny old place, and forums some of the funniest. Funny weird, I mean, though funny ‘ha ha’ too, sometimes. Often, “advice” questions are really “Someone please decide for me” questions. That is so not me. It may, and probably does, look like it, but it isn’t. I take advice, feedback, perspectives and views but at the end, I know my circumstances … and for that matter, preferences …. aren’t necessarily the same as someone elses, so the ideal slutions aren’t, either.

          I mean, what should I have for lunch? Cheese sandwich, or marmite on toast? If I ask someone that likes cheese but detests marmite I’ll get one answer, but if someone loves marmite but is lactose-intolerant, I’ll get a different one. Both answers are in good faith, both offer genuine opinions and if I’m really lucky, I’ll get an answer from someone that, like me, likes both. I might even get “toasted cheese on marmite”. Then, I know I’ve found a soul-brother or sister. No seriously, it works. Better yet, do the toast lightly, spread a thin layer of marmite, sliced tomatoes then grated cheese on top, and grill. Sound disgusting but the marmite basically adds a savoury depth, an ‘umami’. It is, if you like, seasoning.

          See what I mean about weird? How does a thread go from levelers/tampers, to marmite, tomato and cheese on toast? Gotta stop now, I think i hear the nurses coming to inspect the wall padding and my strait-jacket. 😁

          Seriously, though, all answers help.

              As Doram says, we are trying to help. I’m not feeling aggrieved at your slightly sharp response. It needs a dialogue to help you arrive at a decision and, as you say, all serious suggestions have value.
              There is a knock-off version of the Puqpress on Ebay at roughly half the price. I have no idea if it’s any good. For your special circumstances I think a Puqpress is the optimum solution, a known quantity and removes any physical effort. The Jack might work but it’s £100 to find out. My instinct is that it won’t but I’d be happy to be proved wrong.

                Thanks for understanding.

                I wasn’t aware of the knockoff. I know there are Puqpress competitors. The Slingshot Kilo looks moderately interesting, for example, but, I have no notion of price-point, not least because so far, I haven’t found UK distribution. As for a knockoff, I have two issues with that. Firstly, if it is an actual knockoff, a cheeky copy, I won’t touch it on principle. If it’s someone given the market idea by Puqpress and has developed their own solution, then that’s just competition and is actually healthy, but a knockoff undermines healthy competition and is outright exploitation of someone else’s hard work by a talentless semi-criminial no=hoper, and ultimately, not good for consumers. The original Puqpress, as I understand it, took about three years to develop and grow from a garage-built prototype to a viable market product, with a lot risked to do it,and even more growing the company. If someone then waltzes in and rips it off, it discourages the next entrepreneur from risking it all. I get why people might buy it, at half price, but I won’t. Also, buying a knockoff is very much a punt on product quality. Secondly, and on the same lines, it’s much less likely to have worthwhile and reliable customer service if anything goes wrong. I’m also not an eBay fan.

                The third reason (of two, I know) is resale value if/when I don’t need it any more. A legit Puqpress? Probably decent, especially for a low-volume cafe or startup that wants one but wants to save a bit on up-front cost. A knockoff? Not so much.

                I am coming round to the Puqpress as the best option for me, yeah. If they weren’t so damned expensive for what seems like such a simple (if taste-critical) job …. but maybe you get what you pay for. I usually do find, buy right, buy once.

                CoffeePhilE Absolutely no need to explain or justify anything - your circumstances are very clear: you need a solution to replace tamping for medical reasons. I think everyone on this thread completely gets it and genuinely wants to help find a solution that will work for you.

                (when I said “we are trying to help” the sentence continued with “… but most of us don’t have a Jack leveller” - the point was to explain why our thought about the Jack might not be founded or relevant for your special needs. This is why I went to look for reviews from people who did have it - and include the links for you to read. It was not intended as a “we are trying to help…” complaint, if that makes sense).
                I also linked to a place where you could buy the Jack for a lower price - did you have a look at it or read the accounts that I linked to from people who actually used the Jack and commented if it can replace tamping or not?

                I also linked in an earlier post to some manual devices that included a lever to aid with tamping, as I thought this would involve less need for hard physical pressure. Did you see those? Would this be something that you think would be relevant for you?

                  I did,yes. Watched the linked vids, read the forum comments. Comments especially varied. The theme, though there were exceptions, was that most of those with the Jack reckoned that, first, it worked, and second, was better than cheap imitations. Several made the point that it works well provided you set the depth right. Which makes sense. It also shows a weakness of the ‘depth’ metric in the Jack, as opposed to the pressure metric used by Puqpress. If I use the same bean all the time, the Jack is going to be better suited than if I chop and change a lot and have to keep adjusting it.

                  What isn’t going to be easy to assess, on a forum I don’t know, is how many that own it and like it do so because of some kind of confirmation bias? It isn’t easy to buy something expensive then admit it was a mistake. On the other hand, quite a few of those that are negative towards it don’t have one, which begs the question of how they conclude it doesn’t work, or isn’t any better. The same sort of confirmation bias logic could apply.

                  All told, it’s leaing me to conclude I have to decide which risk to take. Minimum cost for a chinese Jack copy, and wish I’d bought right in the first place? Buy an expensive Jack and wish I’d either bought an equally functional cheap copy for less, or even a much more expensive Puqpress. Or spent a lot more on a Puqpress and wish I hadn’t bothered and gone with a cheaper option.

                  There aren’t any risk-free options, so its just a case of making up my mind which to try. I’m inclined, right now, to just bite the bullet and go Puqpress. But I want to let that ferment for a bit, not do it on impulse.

                    CoffeePhilE All told, it’s leaing me to conclude I have to decide which risk to take. Minimum cost for a chinese Jack copy, and wish I’d bought right in the first place? Buy an expensive Jack and wish I’d either bought an equally functional cheap copy for less, or even a much more expensive Puqpress. Or spent a lot more on a Puqpress and wish I hadn’t bothered and gone with a cheaper option.

                    There aren’t any risk-free options, so its just a case of making up my mind which to try. I’m inclined, right now, to just bite the bullet and go Puqpress. But I want to let that ferment for a bit, not do it on impulse.

                    You could buy a Jack for £77 from the link above. If it works for you then great. If not, you could probably sell and recover much of the cost for getting an electric or a lever-assisted tamper.

                      I have been experimenting a bit with this approach. I’ve found that I can get (in my opinion) good shots with just using a leveller and not tamping.

                      Setup: MaraX & Niche (not that it makes a great difference I suspect), with a Rocket 2in1 Tamper/Leveller and an IMS B702th24.5 with around 15-16g dose

                      The Tamper/Leveller has 2 parts (flat and 3-bladed), with locking rings to set the height for both. What I’ve done is wound the leveller side out really far and locked it in place, so it doesn’t touch the portafilter, i.e. it doesn’t control the height. I then simply spin it until it stops dropping in height and is level, no tamping just straight in the machine.

                      I’ve just weighed it and it’s 520g, so it’s not massively heavy, but more than the (cheapish) tampers I have, so it’s not providing a huge amount of consolidation.

                      I’ve not tried it with 18g/20g doses as I tend to go for smaller doses anyway. It’s possible that it might be better (more coffee) or worse (less compaction).

                      I was aiming to get to a “foolproof” way for others to just use the machine once the grind was dialled in.

                      I’ve also tried it with the VST 15g and it works, but that’s more temperamental in general. In fact it’s why I went for the IMS basket in the end as it seems very forgiving.

                      CoffeePhilE Thinking about reducing the effort, increasing consistency and something that will work today and in the future for you…what about:

                      At £165 with the voucher discount, it seems reasonable value. It is 57.5, the 58mm ones are all more expensive from different companies, although clearly the same product. I’d also bet that a standard 58 mm tamper base would probably screw on no problem. I don’t personally think 57.5 is a problem…but you might find it too loose.

                      Even Norvin may be able to help you fit a different size base on the mechanism.

                      Contact me

                          DavecUK

                          That’s certainly an option I wasn’t aware existed. It’s not for me, though. Three issues :-

                          1. Still manual, requiring some strength in arm. Yeah, the lever reduces it, but still ….

                          2. That machine seems to be available from a variety of suppliers, at a variety of prices, none of whom seem to have feedback on it.

                          3. My Golden Rule of Amazon - never, ever buy anything on Amazon that isn’t either from Amazon themselves, or at an absolute minimum, a company (like, oh, Canon, or Epson) that is well-known to me, unless it’s for a small enough sum (certainly sub £20) that I’m willing to just write off it if goes wrong.

                            3.1 As per rule 3, avoid importing from overseas. No effective consumer rights comeback in event of problems.

                          It’s interesting to see, from an academic viewpoint, but not for me. I thought about, and was VERY tempted by something like the Cafelat Robot or more likely, Flair 58, for manual lever brewing (not tamping, obviously) just because they look great, and would be fun to try. But …. levers. So, sadly, reluctantly, I abandoned that notion. They’d end up as expensive ornaments and maybe a talking point with guests, but rarely if ever get used. I still itch, though …. 😁

                            My dear friend @LMSC pointed me to this thread and suggested I table what I tolled with on the way to land my tamp process. In reading through this interesting exchange, it is déja vu for me and I thought it may be helpful to share how I settled on a tamp that I am finally happy with.

                            Like everyone, I own more tampers than I care to admit and certainly what my wife knows about. All of them made sense when I bought them, but at 8, enough is enough. Wood, aluminum, stainless steel, CNC, cast, turned, you name it. Yet my espresso did not taste like it came from a man who owns 8 tampers, I had to find a new way. And the answer for me lied in the oft-dispensed step of tamping.

                            More than just a precise diameter that gently scrape the wall of the basket of choice, the tamp needs to be in a happy marriage with the grind size and weight. No fights should break out between them - that is to say, the two must be in harmony. The finer the grind, the most precise the tamp needs to be as distribution and leveling becomes even more critical when the water is pulled through it during the brew cycle.

                            So my requirements for a great tamp are as follows:

                            1. A precise fit in the basket - for my IMS 26M, it is exactly 55mm. Not 54.7mm, not 54.mm but 55.0mm.

                            2. A graduated tamp that can be precisely calibrated so once the ideal tamp pressure is found, it can be reproduced with accuracy and predictability.

                            3. A tamp that is level to the basket as a tilted tamp can easily lead to channeling and messy leaks at the group head.

                            I looked at tampers, presses manual and electric, cheapo and outrageously expensive. Months later, my solution was actually mostly under my nose all the time, all I needed was a workflow. I am happy to report that my process works with great consistency and repeatability, and is one that I would recommend, all at a cost of about 300 USD or 250 GBP, about ¼ that of a Puqpress which is far inferior.

                            The elements of my set up are:

                            1. K+M Arbor Press with Force Pack and Dial Gauge.
                            2. JoeFrex Technic Handle + JoeFrex 55mm Base (pick bf55)
                            3. IMS Competition Double Filter Basket 12/18g - B662TH26M
                            4. A piece of 1×2 maple as spacer

                            The centerpiece of the setup is the arbor press I use on the reloading bench for reloading F-Class 1,000 yard precision rounds. This setup meets all my criteria for precision, repeatability and relatively modest cost. The advantage of this over any Puqpress is not only the cost but:

                            1. The dial gauge is calibrated to an industrial standard, not an arbitrary number of a digital display that is not specified. And if the “import” dial gauge is not repeatably precise enough due to hysteresis errors, buy a better one like a Mitutoyo from Japan or Tesa from Switzerland.

                            2. When I reached my desired pressure, I hold the lever still for at least 15 seconds longer so the puck does not bounce back or relax on its way to the group head.

                            3. I can feel and see how level the tamp is because it is not hidden inside a cover that you cannot see through.

                            Here is what it looks like on my counter, along with my other tools - the no-longer needed IMS 54,4mm tamper, the 50/55 Amazon tamper used in conjunction with the Norvin dosing funnel, and my RDT spritzer:

                              SL01 You are a great story teller! Jeez, what a set up! We are happy, if you are!

                              Thanks for all the readings as well as the detailed inputs. We can now rest the case for @CoffeePhilE to decide. 😊

                                SL01 Thank you very much for that. And to Like-Medium-Strong-Coffee for pointing you at my question. It is an extremely interesting read. I think mainly what I get from it, given my limitations, is that I’m going to have to settle for the best I can get, which is likely to be some way short of the best that is possible.

                                EDIT - And that post is a good candidate for a kind-of list of authoritative answers to idiot newbie questions.

                                  7 days later

                                  force tamp job done lol

                                  had a leveller, waste of time in the end other than giving a nice looking puck, i just wdt then force tamp

                                  Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                                    LMSC

                                    +1 … I’ve had my Niche for over a year now and find a wee shake of the dosing cup before inverting over filter basket followed by using my eBay cheapo spinner /leveller to ensure a nice level bed followed by a light DaveC style tamp gives very consistent results with medium-light coffee beans.

                                    I have tried WDT et al but it really is just for fun, there seems no real apparent benefit, the Niche is very forgiving. YMMV.

                                      Cuprajake

                                      Agree, in my experience a spinner can hide channels, looks good but what is hiding underneath?. Puck-rake to properly even the bed and level, small tap then light tamp.

                                        like i said i have the force tamper, and bought the cross hatch head for it, looks so cool in the puck, the result, soooo much coffee ground in the shower screen

                                        Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                                        10 days later

                                        CoffeePhilE Seriously good wander off the beaten track, puts me in mind of early Billy Connelly…but seriously mate, trust your gut instincts is what I’ve always said. Profound sympathies btw on the bone thing, my wife has early only osteoporosis and thats bad enough

                                          For what it’s worth I bought a second hand PuqPress (little used) due to having worsening arthritis in my wrist. I use it every day for my 58mm machine and it was worth every cent. (I also have other 49mm and 54mm baskets and I use self levelling EazyTampers for those.) I highly recommend the PuqPress. “No one ever regretted buying quality”.