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  • Numpty Question du Jour - Leveler or traditional tamp?

I did,yes. Watched the linked vids, read the forum comments. Comments especially varied. The theme, though there were exceptions, was that most of those with the Jack reckoned that, first, it worked, and second, was better than cheap imitations. Several made the point that it works well provided you set the depth right. Which makes sense. It also shows a weakness of the ‘depth’ metric in the Jack, as opposed to the pressure metric used by Puqpress. If I use the same bean all the time, the Jack is going to be better suited than if I chop and change a lot and have to keep adjusting it.

What isn’t going to be easy to assess, on a forum I don’t know, is how many that own it and like it do so because of some kind of confirmation bias? It isn’t easy to buy something expensive then admit it was a mistake. On the other hand, quite a few of those that are negative towards it don’t have one, which begs the question of how they conclude it doesn’t work, or isn’t any better. The same sort of confirmation bias logic could apply.

All told, it’s leaing me to conclude I have to decide which risk to take. Minimum cost for a chinese Jack copy, and wish I’d bought right in the first place? Buy an expensive Jack and wish I’d either bought an equally functional cheap copy for less, or even a much more expensive Puqpress. Or spent a lot more on a Puqpress and wish I hadn’t bothered and gone with a cheaper option.

There aren’t any risk-free options, so its just a case of making up my mind which to try. I’m inclined, right now, to just bite the bullet and go Puqpress. But I want to let that ferment for a bit, not do it on impulse.

    CoffeePhilE All told, it’s leaing me to conclude I have to decide which risk to take. Minimum cost for a chinese Jack copy, and wish I’d bought right in the first place? Buy an expensive Jack and wish I’d either bought an equally functional cheap copy for less, or even a much more expensive Puqpress. Or spent a lot more on a Puqpress and wish I hadn’t bothered and gone with a cheaper option.

    There aren’t any risk-free options, so its just a case of making up my mind which to try. I’m inclined, right now, to just bite the bullet and go Puqpress. But I want to let that ferment for a bit, not do it on impulse.

    You could buy a Jack for £77 from the link above. If it works for you then great. If not, you could probably sell and recover much of the cost for getting an electric or a lever-assisted tamper.

      I have been experimenting a bit with this approach. I’ve found that I can get (in my opinion) good shots with just using a leveller and not tamping.

      Setup: MaraX & Niche (not that it makes a great difference I suspect), with a Rocket 2in1 Tamper/Leveller and an IMS B702th24.5 with around 15-16g dose

      The Tamper/Leveller has 2 parts (flat and 3-bladed), with locking rings to set the height for both. What I’ve done is wound the leveller side out really far and locked it in place, so it doesn’t touch the portafilter, i.e. it doesn’t control the height. I then simply spin it until it stops dropping in height and is level, no tamping just straight in the machine.

      I’ve just weighed it and it’s 520g, so it’s not massively heavy, but more than the (cheapish) tampers I have, so it’s not providing a huge amount of consolidation.

      I’ve not tried it with 18g/20g doses as I tend to go for smaller doses anyway. It’s possible that it might be better (more coffee) or worse (less compaction).

      I was aiming to get to a “foolproof” way for others to just use the machine once the grind was dialled in.

      I’ve also tried it with the VST 15g and it works, but that’s more temperamental in general. In fact it’s why I went for the IMS basket in the end as it seems very forgiving.

      CoffeePhilE Thinking about reducing the effort, increasing consistency and something that will work today and in the future for you…what about:

      At £165 with the voucher discount, it seems reasonable value. It is 57.5, the 58mm ones are all more expensive from different companies, although clearly the same product. I’d also bet that a standard 58 mm tamper base would probably screw on no problem. I don’t personally think 57.5 is a problem…but you might find it too loose.

      Even Norvin may be able to help you fit a different size base on the mechanism.

      Contact me

          DavecUK

          That’s certainly an option I wasn’t aware existed. It’s not for me, though. Three issues :-

          1. Still manual, requiring some strength in arm. Yeah, the lever reduces it, but still ….

          2. That machine seems to be available from a variety of suppliers, at a variety of prices, none of whom seem to have feedback on it.

          3. My Golden Rule of Amazon - never, ever buy anything on Amazon that isn’t either from Amazon themselves, or at an absolute minimum, a company (like, oh, Canon, or Epson) that is well-known to me, unless it’s for a small enough sum (certainly sub £20) that I’m willing to just write off it if goes wrong.

            3.1 As per rule 3, avoid importing from overseas. No effective consumer rights comeback in event of problems.

          It’s interesting to see, from an academic viewpoint, but not for me. I thought about, and was VERY tempted by something like the Cafelat Robot or more likely, Flair 58, for manual lever brewing (not tamping, obviously) just because they look great, and would be fun to try. But …. levers. So, sadly, reluctantly, I abandoned that notion. They’d end up as expensive ornaments and maybe a talking point with guests, but rarely if ever get used. I still itch, though …. 😁

            My dear friend @LMSC pointed me to this thread and suggested I table what I tolled with on the way to land my tamp process. In reading through this interesting exchange, it is déja vu for me and I thought it may be helpful to share how I settled on a tamp that I am finally happy with.

            Like everyone, I own more tampers than I care to admit and certainly what my wife knows about. All of them made sense when I bought them, but at 8, enough is enough. Wood, aluminum, stainless steel, CNC, cast, turned, you name it. Yet my espresso did not taste like it came from a man who owns 8 tampers, I had to find a new way. And the answer for me lied in the oft-dispensed step of tamping.

            More than just a precise diameter that gently scrape the wall of the basket of choice, the tamp needs to be in a happy marriage with the grind size and weight. No fights should break out between them - that is to say, the two must be in harmony. The finer the grind, the most precise the tamp needs to be as distribution and leveling becomes even more critical when the water is pulled through it during the brew cycle.

            So my requirements for a great tamp are as follows:

            1. A precise fit in the basket - for my IMS 26M, it is exactly 55mm. Not 54.7mm, not 54.mm but 55.0mm.

            2. A graduated tamp that can be precisely calibrated so once the ideal tamp pressure is found, it can be reproduced with accuracy and predictability.

            3. A tamp that is level to the basket as a tilted tamp can easily lead to channeling and messy leaks at the group head.

            I looked at tampers, presses manual and electric, cheapo and outrageously expensive. Months later, my solution was actually mostly under my nose all the time, all I needed was a workflow. I am happy to report that my process works with great consistency and repeatability, and is one that I would recommend, all at a cost of about 300 USD or 250 GBP, about ¼ that of a Puqpress which is far inferior.

            The elements of my set up are:

            1. K+M Arbor Press with Force Pack and Dial Gauge.
            2. JoeFrex Technic Handle + JoeFrex 55mm Base (pick bf55)
            3. IMS Competition Double Filter Basket 12/18g - B662TH26M
            4. A piece of 1×2 maple as spacer

            The centerpiece of the setup is the arbor press I use on the reloading bench for reloading F-Class 1,000 yard precision rounds. This setup meets all my criteria for precision, repeatability and relatively modest cost. The advantage of this over any Puqpress is not only the cost but:

            1. The dial gauge is calibrated to an industrial standard, not an arbitrary number of a digital display that is not specified. And if the “import” dial gauge is not repeatably precise enough due to hysteresis errors, buy a better one like a Mitutoyo from Japan or Tesa from Switzerland.

            2. When I reached my desired pressure, I hold the lever still for at least 15 seconds longer so the puck does not bounce back or relax on its way to the group head.

            3. I can feel and see how level the tamp is because it is not hidden inside a cover that you cannot see through.

            Here is what it looks like on my counter, along with my other tools - the no-longer needed IMS 54,4mm tamper, the 50/55 Amazon tamper used in conjunction with the Norvin dosing funnel, and my RDT spritzer:

              SL01 You are a great story teller! Jeez, what a set up! We are happy, if you are!

              Thanks for all the readings as well as the detailed inputs. We can now rest the case for @CoffeePhilE to decide. 😊

                SL01 Thank you very much for that. And to Like-Medium-Strong-Coffee for pointing you at my question. It is an extremely interesting read. I think mainly what I get from it, given my limitations, is that I’m going to have to settle for the best I can get, which is likely to be some way short of the best that is possible.

                EDIT - And that post is a good candidate for a kind-of list of authoritative answers to idiot newbie questions.

                  7 days later

                  force tamp job done lol

                  had a leveller, waste of time in the end other than giving a nice looking puck, i just wdt then force tamp

                  Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                    LMSC

                    +1 … I’ve had my Niche for over a year now and find a wee shake of the dosing cup before inverting over filter basket followed by using my eBay cheapo spinner /leveller to ensure a nice level bed followed by a light DaveC style tamp gives very consistent results with medium-light coffee beans.

                    I have tried WDT et al but it really is just for fun, there seems no real apparent benefit, the Niche is very forgiving. YMMV.

                      Cuprajake

                      Agree, in my experience a spinner can hide channels, looks good but what is hiding underneath?. Puck-rake to properly even the bed and level, small tap then light tamp.

                        like i said i have the force tamper, and bought the cross hatch head for it, looks so cool in the puck, the result, soooo much coffee ground in the shower screen

                        Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                        10 days later

                        CoffeePhilE Seriously good wander off the beaten track, puts me in mind of early Billy Connelly…but seriously mate, trust your gut instincts is what I’ve always said. Profound sympathies btw on the bone thing, my wife has early only osteoporosis and thats bad enough

                          For what it’s worth I bought a second hand PuqPress (little used) due to having worsening arthritis in my wrist. I use it every day for my 58mm machine and it was worth every cent. (I also have other 49mm and 54mm baskets and I use self levelling EazyTampers for those.) I highly recommend the PuqPress. “No one ever regretted buying quality”.

                          LMSC My routine is a quick WDT and a gentle two-finger tamping in cardinal and ordinal directions.

                          This is exactly what I do. No need for heavy pressure. I have fairly heavy tampers anyway (Torr Goldfingers in flat and convex) and it’s sufficient to either apply gentle pressure on the handle in the traditional way or to just go round with your thumbs on the metal part, which Goldfingers lend themselves to. (Mind you they’re quite expensive but not at all ‘necessary’, I bought them cos I liked them, not because they did anything different or special). The main thing is they’re heavy and most importantly, fit the basket closely.

                          I have never been convinced enough of the leveler things to try one, therefore I have nothing much to say about leveling before or instead of tamping.