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  • Numpty Question du Jour - Leveler or traditional tamp?

What are your collective views on levelers instead of temping?

I’ve seen a lot of comments, many/most of which seem to refer back to WLL Marc’s assertion about 3 or 4 years ago that the Jack leveler is a substitute for tamping. The logic seems to be :-

  • avoids the consistency from human variation
  • if used correctly, exerts enough pressure, pretty much eliminates channeling
  • hard to use incorrectly if basic principles are followed
  • avoids wrist RSI / shoulder injury from tamping.

This is not an idle question. At the moment, I can tamp. How well, is arguable, but I can. If I use the Sage grinder/tamper I don’t need to, but …. the Niche Zero is on the way. Also eyeing the Eureka Oro Single Doser. Then, I will needto.

Part of my cancer problem is bone cancer, and as it happens, in both shoulders, both of which have had radiotherapy, and are degenerative. Exerting undue shoulder pressure risks a brokewn shoulder, As I say, this is not an idle question.

So, options? Pugpress, or similar. That’s Plan A but, not cheap. Before I pull the trigger, even at about £130, the Jack Leveler, while expensive, is a lot cheaper than that. To be clear, I don’t give a hoot about theJack’s fancy colour options, wood options, etc. I also am more than happy for a similar device that isn’t Jack provided it works. But I won’t baulk at the £130-ish of the Jack if need be. Nor at the Puqpress, if it comes to that.

What I do want is something first, foremost and primarily works. I’d rather just go Puqpress (a barista friend assures me she’s more than content that that works, albeit at a price), and uses one at work.

But what about levelers? Marc (WLL) seems entirely genuine, but it does make me wary when smeone recommends something that they sell. Impartial it ain’t, though it might well still be good advice. The theory, as above, seems fine, If you compress enough to eliminate channeling routes, and get the puck level and consistent, then the actual pressure shouldn’t matter. Some testing Seven Mile did on tamping pressure seems to agree with that.

So, levelers? Good (and cheaper) alternative to Puqpress (for my home, distintively non-commercial usage), or questionably ineffective if fashionable gadget/gizmo.

    CoffeePhilE I haven’t used the Jack leveller, but I have a cheap Chinese knockoff that I don’t think would replace tamping. I have seen WLL video, and saying that mark is pushing this product is an understatement. It might work, but to be honest I am doubtful. To replace tamping you would need to have quite an exact amount of coffee calibrated to the depth setting of the leveller. Variation in the dose, in the grind or in the coffee would change the volume taken by the coffee, and if you don’t adjust the depth of the leveller to suit, my thinking is that you would get a different amount of compaction. It might not matter if this variation is small, but I am not sure. I have not seen anyone other than Mark on those videos saying they only use a leveller instead of tamping, but maybe I just missed it?

    I understand you worry that you will have difficulty tamping. An electric machine would solve it, but as you say it’s expensive (probably because it’s intended for a commercial environment). Perhaps a device with a manual lever would work as well? I have seen a 3D printed one, and also a this one. (the last one is available to buy in the UK but it looks like the same product for £100 more).

      CoffeePhilE A leveller is no substitute for tamping. I like my cheap Chinese knockoff three wing leveller but I do tamp afterwards. However, there is no rule that says you have to exert a lot of pressure, in fact there are many advocates of really light tamping pressures. I suspect distribution is more important with a light tamp all that is required. Why not try it and see before spending a lot on a device?

          As Doram advised, you could consider a cheaper electric version.

          Like Rob advised, I remember reading the posts of Dave and Patrick suggesting a light tamp pressure.

          My routine is a quick WDT and a gentle two-finger tamping in cardinal and ordinal directions.

          My good friend @SL01 however uses puqpress in conjunction with a tamper.

            Rob666 Why not try it and see before spending a lot on a device?

            I ‘tried’ using the leveller without tamping (read, I was thinking of something else and forgot to tamp :-)). It didn’t work. Shot ran through the coffee very quickly, no resistance at all. It had to go down the drain (and I am not one to waste a shot if it’s not perfect). Could be that I could do better by adjusting the depth of the leveller, but the notion that the water pressure would do the tamping for you - I don’t think so.

                Doram I’ve done the same! For the same reason and with similar results. A light tamp OTOH seems to work as well or better than a heavy one, on my dark beans at least.

                  When I had my Evo in early Aug, I was looking for a distributor and/or leveller. I think it was Denis who shared this video. This is also FYI please.

                  Doram The argument being made (which may be cobblers) does require the height to be set, though, and that may not have been in that situation. Their case is that it deosn’t require much pressure to remove the gaps from between grind particles, to achieve sufficient compression but that it does require some. Levelling without getting that height correct wouldn’t adequately compress, and then yeah, inadeqaute pressure resistance too. The required pressure is, allegedly, pretty low.

                  It’s a plausible argument, for sure. I just don’t know if it’s right.

                    Rob666 Why not try it and see before spending a lot on a device?

                    Because I’d have to go and buy and leveler and/or tamper to do so. I’m a bit reluctant to spend £130 on a leveler, and more on a tamper, only to find out it doesn’t, and end up buying a Puqpress anyway.

                        I have done some experimentation in this area - and my conclusion was that a leveller alone is enough for a given coffee once you get the grind and depth right. But is that enough?

                        A while ago, I significantly over ordered a particular coffee - it turned out to be a bit of a blessing in so far as it allowed me to focus on my process without the “new type of bean this week” scenario (I froze it in sealed 250g batches). Bear in mind I still feel like I have a lot to learn about making coffee - even after a couple of years. So, having got my grind and puck preparation process in reasonable shape, I saw the WLL video about levellers replacing tamping and thought I would give it a go. Without changing anything else, I stopped tamping and just used a (cheap Chinese) leveller - results were initially poor, with lots of channeling. However, by adjusting the depth (but changing nothing else) I got to a position where the coffee was just as good as when I had been tamping. Happy result.

                        However, when I got back to using a different coffee each week I found that the trial and error required to get the leveller to the right depth (which is imho crucial) for each new coffee was outweighed by the quicker consistency I get from a modest tamp.

                        Your mileage may vary :)

                        Regards,

                        John

                          CoffeePhilE Don’t buy an expensive leveller! Buy a cheap Chinese one, e.g.

                          they do exactly the same job. If you don’t like the results, then worry about spending lots of money on expensive devices.

                              Ozzyjohn Maybe an idea is to manually tamp normally, look at the resulting height and adjust a leveler accordingly???

                              Of course,that doesn’t work in my situation but I could use the auto-tamp built-in to the Oracle as a guide, I guess, and set the Jack height to mimic that. The only problem is that the grind on the Niche won’t be exactly the same as the Sge grinder …. I hope. It f was, thre wouldn’t be much point in having the Niche. But it’s a guide.

                                CoffeePhilE The missing bit is an Amazon link. There are loads of levellers on there at very reasonable prices.

                                  Rob666 But you yourself said you use your cheap Chinese leveler and then tamp?

                                  It’s the tamping I’m trying to avoid. Even if they’re relatively cheap, buying a cheap tamper and a cheap leveler is a waste of money if I end up buying either a better one, or a Puqpress afterwards, because it doesn’t work for me. That’s why I asked the qudstion.

                                  I don’t mind spending money, even on a Puqpress, when (and if) it’s necessary. I just don’t like wasting it though.

                                      CoffeePhilE It’s worth paying a little to learn if you like something or not. The Amazon Chinese leveller/tampers are around £20 upwards. Not a lot to try a method and you can always sell it if you don’t like it. Again, I emphasise LIGHT tamping after WDT and levelling is the method I’m suggesting you try. Very little effort involved.

                                        It’s not just about effort. It’s about risk, and time. I already have one shoulder I can’t use for much. If I damage the other one, it’s a major problem. I also already have one permanently broken bone, in my hand. Fortunately, it’s the left hand, and I’m right-handed. Nonetheless, and even with something as minor as my little finger, if I even touch anything on that, the two bits of broken bone grind against each other, and believe me, it blooming hurts. The condition I have risks bone weakness, as that finger makes clear. The chemo risks even more bone weakness, which is why I take bone strengthening meds, which also have some not-fun effects on me. Imagine a broken shoulder, if a broken pinky is that painful.

                                        If I end up with a broken shoulder, I will no doubt end up in hospital for surgery … or an immobilising cast. I really should have that pinky finger removed but, y’know, Covid and stuff. Another delightful part of the cancer is that it’s in my lungs too, so, hospital and surgery risks chest infection, and that, given my lungs, involves a not inconsiderable risk of coming out feet-first.

                                        Until the next MRI scan, I won’t even know how successful the last round of radiotherapy was on the shoulder, and thus, won’t know how weakened it is.

                                        The whole point of the leveler question was to avoid manual tamping. I get that my situation is far from normal, but even light tamping exerts pressure in places it’s probably best to avoid even light stresses, where possible. Some things aren’t avoidable, and I’ll have to deal with the consequences of that if/when anything happens, but tamping? It’s a risk I don’t need to take.

                                        Yeah, Puqpress avoids it. If need be, so be it. But I’m not looking to spend money if not needed. If a leveler alone, without tamping, will do the job, then it’s worth looking at. At that point, I’ll need to find out (maybe by suck-it-and-see), if a cheap Chinese leveler will do it on it’s own or if there’s something about the design, maybe the weight, of the Jack, that means it works and they won’t.

                                        Maybe I can get a clear answer to whether a leveler alone works just by asking, maybe not. Maybe someone has used both a Jack and cheap Chinese tampers and knows that either both work, one works or neither is sufficient, and why. Again, that’s why I’m asking.

                                        In general, I agree about the learning process. My objective is to shortcut to a solution that works, not to mess with either tampers or levelers unless it looks viable. Everything I read suggests even something as apparently simple as tamping requires practice, experience, maybe muscle memory to get right, consistently. If I buy a cheap leveler, and a cheap tamper, and then spend a lot of time getting lousy shots, is it because the leveler isn’t working, because that cheap one isn’t but a Jack does (according to Marc) or because my tamping technique isn’t good enough? Or good enough, consistently.

                                        Getting the puck prepared adequately isn’t an area I want to spend a lot of time on, if an easy solution is available, even if it’s an expensive easy solution. Roasting maybe, but tamping? No.

                                        All of which brings me right back to whether leveling is, on it’s own, sufficient. If you use your cheap leveler and it requires you to then tamp, that suggests leveling with it on it’s own doesn’t work. Maybe the Jack does? Maybe something else, cheaper than the Jack, does? Maybe not. If so, I hope to find out before the Niche arrives otherwise it’ll sit here and I can’t use it. If not and I need a Puqpress, I’d rather just order and be done. But if there’s an alternative, I’d rather find out before I order.

                                          CoffeePhilE - we are trying to help, but I think most of us don’t have a Jack leveller, so we are just guessing, and you want to hear from people who use it. You might have already found them, but in case you didn’t, below are a few places where people talk about the Jack and the option to use it instead of a tamper. Some people say it’s the same as the knockoffs, but others say it actually works instead of tamping. I think one important point might be that you need to adjust the depth of a leveller to use it instead of a tamper, but on the Jack adjusting the depth is easier and quicker than on the cheaper alternatives (just spin and it clicks?). Maybe that is why some people find that it works and worth the price (they adjust the depth), and others think it’s no better that the cheaper ones and not worth the money?

                                          If you do decide to go for it, Blue Star Coffee have it on offer at 109 Euro. But it gets better: They are in Ireland, so when shipping to the UK they automatically remove the VAT, which brings the price to less than 90 Euros (~£77). You might need to buy something else (coffee?) to bring the total to 100 Euros and get free shipping, and if you are unlucky - might need to pay UK VAT (If you want it, notice they currently only have one in stock).

                                          Some links with reviews:

                                          https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49593-levelers-no-tamp/

                                          https://www.home-barista.com/tips/asso-coffee-jack-leveler-it-works-t59184.html

                                          https://judge.me/reviews/canada-espresso-gear.myshopify.com/products/asso-coffee-the-jack-leveler

                                          https://www.wholelattelove.com/products/asso-coffee-the-jack-leveler-in-black

                                              Doram we are trying to help,

                                              Oh, I understand that, and I do appreciate all comments. And I mean, all.

                                              Looking back, my replies to Rob might look to be a bit sharp. That was not my intent. The intent was explain why I looking for a tamping-less solution. For most people, probably 99.999%, a light tamp is not an issue of any sort. I’m in the other 0.001% and I was trying to explain why I’m not looking to experiment with solutions that involve tamping.

                                              That broken finger? Know what I was doing? Walking across a room. I didn’t hit it, knock it, stress it, nothing. Didn’t think much of it either. It was “Owww!”, and I moved on with my day. But when after a couple of weeks, and with one other issue, I eventually went to my GP I got referred straight to a surgical assessment unit at the hospital, and hours later, a bone biopsy (which was great fun - not). That’s how the diagnosis was made.

                                              Sure, the pinky is a tiny bone, but the fact that it snapped from what appears to have been normal muscular tension shows how careful I have to be, and why I’m tamp-averse, why I’m looking at a leveler-only solution, or even Puqpress. Explaining that is the tone I was aiming at. I may have missed.

                                                  CoffeePhilE

                                                  Unfortunately, there is a risk associated with any of the tamper-less choices you are going to have to make. Feedback from current users of these options would only lower the risk of a waste investment not eliminate it. If it is not for you, you could sell them off a little lower and cut your losses.

                                                  Re-puqpress, I would, if I were you, drop a PM to @SL01 and request him to share his experiences; perhaps, you may request him if he would try pulling a few shots without tamping and share the outcome.

                                                  I know he and his family drink only dark roasts. He is so meticulous in his puck preparation; I would, personally, trust his judgement of the experiment. But, that’s just me. At the end of the experiment, what works for him, may or may not for you.

                                                  I know, I am being far from helpful. 😊

                                                      LMSC I know, I am being far from helpful. 😊

                                                      But you are. Seriously. So is Rob.

                                                      Rob’s “try it” isn’t really the direction I’m looking to go in but any suggestion gets me thinking. It’s funny in a way, but in trying to explain to him why I don’t want to do that. I’m also explaining it to myself. Weird, right? I think it goes like this. My gut says “Not what I want”, but in trying to explain that, one of two things happens - either I end up clarifying why my gut says that, which helps resolve that issue in my own head, or …. I can’t explain it, in which case I end up changing my mind, and my gut feeling can suck one. 😁

                                                      So, all suggestions help, even if I end up rejecting some.

                                                      That’s really what this whole thread (and much of several others) are about - clarifying my thinking, seeing if you guys (with way more knowledge and experience) come up with ideas or approaches I hadn’t thought of. The internet is a funny old place, and forums some of the funniest. Funny weird, I mean, though funny ‘ha ha’ too, sometimes. Often, “advice” questions are really “Someone please decide for me” questions. That is so not me. It may, and probably does, look like it, but it isn’t. I take advice, feedback, perspectives and views but at the end, I know my circumstances … and for that matter, preferences …. aren’t necessarily the same as someone elses, so the ideal slutions aren’t, either.

                                                      I mean, what should I have for lunch? Cheese sandwich, or marmite on toast? If I ask someone that likes cheese but detests marmite I’ll get one answer, but if someone loves marmite but is lactose-intolerant, I’ll get a different one. Both answers are in good faith, both offer genuine opinions and if I’m really lucky, I’ll get an answer from someone that, like me, likes both. I might even get “toasted cheese on marmite”. Then, I know I’ve found a soul-brother or sister. No seriously, it works. Better yet, do the toast lightly, spread a thin layer of marmite, sliced tomatoes then grated cheese on top, and grill. Sound disgusting but the marmite basically adds a savoury depth, an ‘umami’. It is, if you like, seasoning.

                                                      See what I mean about weird? How does a thread go from levelers/tampers, to marmite, tomato and cheese on toast? Gotta stop now, I think i hear the nurses coming to inspect the wall padding and my strait-jacket. 😁

                                                      Seriously, though, all answers help.