dfk41 Good question mate! It’s the issue surrounding the inlet complicates it.

Did the water leak outside at the L joint around the inlet or the water leak inside out (when it boils) or both? I would think it is inside out - more hardness deposits as we steamed and not flushed.

The bottom line is - you are good now. With regular flushing, either a cup a day as some of us do or full monthly flush as MRS suggested should do. Only thing is our first two batches of machines’ pipe does not go all the way down to allow a full flesh thru’ the hot water tap.

You may ask Systemic’s routine to ascertain the best way to manage as I have also installed a drain valve.

    While this is hot, I thought I’d ask something I’ve wondered about for a while. I only use osmio zero with re mineralisation cartridge. I hardly ever steam, maybe once every two weeks or less (I do intend to get more into it though!). I have refreshed the steam boiler water two or three times since getting the Vesuvius about 6 months ago just as a precaution for stale water purposes. Yesterday I removed the remineralisation cartridge, emptied the osmio tank, and refilled the Vesuvius with just ro water after flushing the steam boiler tank out. I will continue using remineralised water as usual from here. Couple of questions:

    1. How often should I refresh this water
    2. How often does the osmio remineralisation cartridge last

    Cheers

    • LMSC replied to this.

      JahLaza Dave has been using RO for more than 10-12 years. He has plenty of actual usage experience than any of us. I am sure, he will advise you.

      IMO, your refresh cycle is more than sufficient;

      Re-the mineralisation filter, it should starts losing its’ potency steadily. It depends on how much water you draw from the unit. We draw at least 10-12 litres a day and more during week ends. Ours’ loses its utility in 6 months. Ex: the TDS when we changed the filter in March was 50-60+. Now, it is about 30! However, we won’t change until it shows change filter or the anniversary month in Feb/March

      Hope it helps. Don’t think it does anything significant.

          LMSC thanks for that. I use the osmio with remineralisation as my water source. I assumed that was fine and would not cause scaling even if I steamed every day, assuming an approximate alkalinity of 40mg/l and gh around that too. Don’t want to start another one of these conversations here now!! But, in simple terms I figured remineralised osmio will be fine- plug and play. I also figured I’ve less to worry about seeing as I steam so seldom. I guess that thought was challenged when I saw @dfk41’s photo here but even that isn’t clear cut as noted by @DavecUK that the boiler is probably fine inside. I changed my filters last November and intend to leave alone until I get a warning light to change them or around November seeing as a year has been suggested as a good time to change them if they last that long (I noticed it was stated here before that from a bacterial point of view that’s recommended). That prompted my question about the lifespan of the remin cartridge but don’t think it will be an issue if it’s done before the others either way. I sterilise it with blank cartridges (and Milton tablets) about half yearly. I’m still very pleased with the osmio and am curious to see if I get the year from the filters, my tap water is about 220 mg/l gh I think

          • Rob1 replied to this.

              JahLaza

              40mg/l kh:gh will scale feeding a service boiler…usually. Because usually alkalinity is from carbonate sources, and most hardness is too.

              In the case of the Osmio and the remineralisation cartridge, I’m not sure that’s the case. I’m reasonably sure I’ve heard bits and pieces about “organic” sources of minerals, amino acids and ceramics. So you’ll get at least some carbonate alkalinity from your water supply remaining in the RO, and whatever additional alkalinity you get from whatever is in the filter. Scale will be limited to whatever carbonate alkalinity there is present anyway…

                  @Rob1 Please see this post of mine above. The details of the mineralisation cartridge are provided by Osmio Zero, when I spoke to them on the phone. The minerals are calcium carbonate.

                  I spoke to OZ today. During the course of the chat, we spoke about the composition of the mineralisation cartridge. They drew my attention to a few things that can make up the final hardness of the mineralised RO from the OZ.

                  Feeding tap water, depending on how hard the water is, might have a higher hardness in the pure RO vs the RO hardness from soft/softened water.
                  A lack of descaling of the RO system will have an impact on the hardness content of the RO water
                  The silver-costed mineralisation cartridge has calcium and magnesium and is likely to add about 10-20 ppm as CaCO3 to the RO water. This depends on how long the minerals were in contact with the water.
                  If anyone wants to run the unit without the mineral cartridge, it can be done after replacing it with a blank cartridge. Otherwise, the unit will leak.

                    Rob1 I guess I’m looking for the least amount of faff and least risk to the coffee machine (for now with two young kids etc.!) Keeping remineralisation will satisfy the general water taste for the house and indeed for the americanos but refresh the steam boiler periodically (as stated above). A bit more frequently when I start improving my latte art and steam more often! That should keep things right?

                    Edit: didn’t see LMSC ‘s response above before this post

                        @Rob1 Some average numbers of Osmio zero seen over the last 1 year

                        Pure RO - Based on 40 ml sample

                        GH 2 drops avg = 4.48 mg/l

                        KH  6 drops avg = 13.43 mg/l

                        TDS 14

                        Temp 22.4C

                        With mineralisation RO 40 ml sample (6 Month old - current)

                        GH 4 drops avg = 8.96 mg/l

                        KH  14 drops avg = 31.33 mg/l

                        TDS 54

                        Fresh mineralisation filter RO 40 ml filter (New filter)

                        GH 8drops avg = 17-19 mg/l

                        KH  14 drops avg = 45-50 mg/l

                        TDS 78-80

                        Steam Boiler water tested yesterday

                        GH avg  = 6.71 mg/l - The top of the range over 14 months is 21 mg/l

                        KH average 40.28 mg/l - the top of the range over 14 months is 51 mg/l

                        TDS 66

                        Temp 24.4+

                        I do a quarterly refresh.

                        LMSC

                        Yeah, I saw that but it doesn’t mention anything about calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate being in the filter. Everyone who has asked previously has been met with reluctance to say exactly what is in the remineralisation filter in definitive terms. Everything I’ve heard in the past is what is in the osmio is not a carbonate source of magnesium or calcium and will not cause scale (a flat statement you could only ever make if you didn’t use carbonate sources), that the water has a negative orp value, and that the calcium and magnesium added by the osmio is from organic bioavailable sources (a term used to refer to non carbonate sources of calcium e.g calcium gluconate). That the filters add 10-20ppm hardness as CaCO3 doesn’t mean they actually add any CaCO3…..maybe things have changed since people last made enquiries a couple of years ago though.

                        The numbers above for pure RO suggest about 13.5mg/l KH from carbonates will remain in the water but this depends on what you put in, obviously.

                        @JahLaza - Pulling water for americanos and refreshing the service boiler regularly should do the trick.

                            Rob1 thanks for this. I didn’t mean I pull water from the Vesuvius for americanos, I use remineralised water from the osmio to top up espresso for americanos. I’ve only refreshed the steam boiler three times I think since owning it 6 months or so but I don’t steam that much

                                JahLaza The more mineralised water (i.e. not steam) you pull out of the service boiler, the lower the concentration of salts in it - if you also use it for steaming - so making americanos is not a bad use for it!

                                [All else being equal, obviously, and unless you do what Rob1 does - i.e. empty and refill the steam boiler with distilled/deionised water]

                                  JahLaza I think your routine is fine. You hardly use your service and doing a quarterly flush to remove the static water.

                                  IMO, depending on what feeds the OZ, the pure RO is as close as you can get to the distilled. We feed softened water. The result is what I posted above. This should be good as a regular refresh.

                                    @Rob1

                                    The description of the mineralisation filter on their website is as follows:

                                    Quick-Change Insertion Filters: Hygiene After-filter antibacterial calcium and magnesium bioceramics, adding a small 10-20 ppm of minerals.

                                    Not sure, it clarifies anything without the actual content!

                                    Read all the posts and a little confused. Simply put does the mineral cartridge impact heavily on the reliability of the espresso machine. If it does not why put a blank one in? Secondly ( sorry for my ignorance) what is the relevance of steaming to all of this. I was hoping to buy the osmosis zero, use the water for the espresso machine, change the filters every 6 months and sanitise it every now and again. Just wanted to keep it simple and use the espresso machine as normal. Am i missing something?

                                      coffeealex As you may have read from Osmio threads, depending on your steaming usage, pull water out regularly from the hot water tap of your espresso machine and/or do full refresh off the service boiler.

                                          LMSC Apologies if some of these questions seem silly, but why do you need to refresh the steam boiler for? is it because water that is not circulating is more likely to leave limescale deposits? When you mention the service boiler do you mean the steam boiler? Does a full refresh of the boiler mean opening the hot water tap until x amount of water has come out?

                                              Furthermore as the key in all of this is the prevention of scaling, what do you use to measure the hardness? Is it test strips or a TDS meter? or other? also when deciding how often to change the filter on OZ what do you use as a guide? ie the change in hardness of the water been extracted after 3 months? 6 months etc In other words looking at whether the filters are still working efficiently? DaveC in one of his articles recommends adding a small amount of bicarbonate of soda to water to improve Ph ie make it more alkaline. Is this because acidic water is more damaging to espresso machines? And is the trade off of in reducing acidity whilst increasing tds slightly a good one in protecting your espresso machine? What would happen if you did not add bicarbonate of soda?

                                                coffeealex but why do you need to refresh the steam boiler for? is it because water that is not circulating is more likely to leave limescale deposits? When you mention the service boiler do you mean the steam boiler? Does a full refresh of the boiler mean opening the hot water tap until x amount of water has come out?

                                                When you steam, the service / steam boiler will leave the minerals behind. The more you steam, the more the minerals as deposits in the boiler. You can draw a small cup after you finish steaming for the day. You can open the hot water from your machine - once a month or every 5-6 weeks, flush all the water out and replace it fresh Pure RO. Every one manages it differently.

                                                coffeealex Furthermore as the key in all of this is the prevention of scaling, what do you use to measure the hardness? Is it test strips or a TDS meter? or other? also when deciding how often to change the filter on OZ what do you use as a guide? ie the change in hardness of the water been extracted after 3 months? 6 months etc In other words looking at whether the filters are still working efficiently? DaveC in one of his articles recommends adding a small amount of bicarbonate of soda to water to improve Ph ie make it more alkaline. Is this because acidic water is more damaging to espresso machines? And is the trade off of in reducing acidity whilst increasing tds slightly a good one in protecting your espresso machine? What would happen if you did not add bicarbonate of soda?

                                                Please get a drop kit from Amazon and measure the GH and KH. Change all the filter when OZ flashes or on the anniversary month of year, which ever comes first. Because, the filters must be changed at least once a year.

                                                With OZ, if running with the mineral filter, you do not need to add anything. Please read the OZ website and talk to them, if you want. Their customer support is excellent.

                                                      coffeealex is it because water that is not circulating is more likely to leave limescale deposits? When you mention the service boiler do you mean the steam boiler? Does a full refresh of the boiler mean opening the hot water tap until x amount of water has come out?

                                                      It’s not “circulation” (as in termosiphon); it’s the fact that you have water with minerals in the boiler, but when you pull steam you are taking pure, distilled water out, and leaving the minerals in.

                                                      Service boiler = steam boiler (but since it can also be used for pulling hot water… it’s not just a ‘steam’ boiler)

                                                      Full refresh = pulling out all water from the service boiler and replacing it with (ideally) low mineralisation/demineralised water. This may involve draining the boiler via siphoning or opening a drain tap if draining via the hot water tap leaves significant amounts of water in the boiler.

                                                      coffeealex what do you use to measure the hardness? Is it test strips or a TDS meter? or other? also when deciding how often to change the filter on OZ what do you use as a guide? ie the change in hardness of the water been extracted after 3 months? 6 months etc In other words looking at whether the filters are still working efficiently? DaveC in one of his articles recommends adding a small amount of bicarbonate of soda to water to improve Ph ie make it more alkaline. Is this because acidic water is more damaging to espresso machines? And is the trade off of in reducing acidity whilst increasing tds slightly a good one in protecting your espresso machine? What would happen if you did not add bicarbonate of soda?

                                                      The only reliable method for measuring hardness is to use a GH (and KH) test kit. Usually in drops. A TDS meter is not particularly useful for a number of reasons, though it may provide an indication, especially if you know what is in the water (i.e. you have remineralised it yourself).

                                                      The duration of any filter - be it OZ, Zerowater, whatever else - depends on how much you use it and on the water you put in. Manufacturers provide instructions on how to assess the state of the filter.

                                                      Bicarbonate - partly used because of corrosion, but largely because it improves the taste of coffee. TDS by itself doesn’t mean much - what the ‘Dissolved Solids’ are is at least as important; water rich in chlorides will corrode, but not necessarily scale. Water rich in calcium or magnesium and (bi)carbonate will scale, but is unlikely to be corrosive. Both may have the same TDS.

                                                      If you don’t add “some” buffering agent (e.g. sodium bicarbonate), your coffee will taste worse and you are more likely to cause corrosion.

                                                      Bear in mind that on the issue of water mineralisation, there are things that are objectively clear and undisputed (e.g. presence of Ca and Mg + carbonates is necessary for scale to form), others that are “challengeable” (e.g. amount of dissolved chlorides that is ‘safe’ for a given material), and others still that are purely subjective: taste (e.g. @Rob1 finds coffee made from water containing magnesium sulphate tasting bad, I don’t).