My workflow of feeding the machine and keeping the scaling risk is good. I haven’t seen anything, which is a cause for concern, so far. Touch wood. **The current practice:** Feed the remineralised water straight from the OZ on demand; draw a cup after every steaming and do a full refresh every 3 months. Over 14 months, the GH range of the service boiler is 7 mg/l - 21 mg/l. I do think from time to time the following, when the Evo tank requires a refill, if I should do the following once a week: * Remove the mineralisation filter, * draw out the 1L water from the OZ Internal filter * Prep a concentrate of bicarb * Refill the Evo tank and add 8-10ml of concentrate * Draw another 5L of RO and keep it under the sink. We are probably ok during winter. I don’t think we need more than 7.5L a week of RO even if we draw a small cup after every steam. The question: Will the 5L water, if kept at the room temperature, be fit for consumption? Are there any health risks? My wife thinks it is a bad idea, and asked why change the routine when things seem under control; she recommends keeping it simple and continue the current practice, unless required. She does have a point.

This is way overthinking things. **If David had put a borescope inside his steam boiler, I don't think you would see any scale formation.** Osmio is meant to have a cartridge in the remineralisation area, just check the water path of the cartridge. Use a blank one or sterilise an old one and keep using till it wears out. However, I don't believe you need to keep removing the remineralisation cartridge, which also means removing and refitting the filters each time.

> @"DavecUK"#p25502 This is way overthinking things. While you have maintained the decorum, my wife gave me a cold stare and rolled her eyes suggesting ![Giphy - Kate Hudson GIF by The Roku Channel](https://media3.giphy.com/media/H2pGvZcbk7uXzPbGM8/giphy.gif?cid=bb77869ftre5gzo4u67ha77itm824yzieyzxttaq2763vkwx&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g) > @"DavecUK"#p25502 boroscope inside his steam boiler, I don’t think you would see any scale formation. Seriously? Is it because the scale would have formed and coated around the boiler like a thin film?

I spoke to OZ today. During the course of the chat, we spoke about the composition of the mineralisation cartridge. They drew my attention to a few things that can make up the final hardness of the mineralised RO from the OZ. * Feeding hot water, depending on how hard the water is, might have a higher hardness in the pure RO vs the RO hardness from soft/softened water. * A lack of descaling of the RO system will have an impact on the hardness content of the RO water * The silver-costed **mineralisation cartridge has calcium and magnesium** and is likely to add about 10-20 ppm as CaCO3 to the RO water. This depends on how long the minerals were in contact with the water. * If anyone wants to run the unit without the mineral cartridge, it can be done after replacing it with a blank cartridge. Otherwise, the unit will leak. So, it does make sense to test, from time to time, the mineralised RO water from Osmio Zero to get an idea of the general hardness. Feeding a hard water may have a higher hardness content than the soft / softened water. The risk of scaling also differs in every one of our machines.

@"LMSC"#p25507 I think what Dave meant, was that there would be no scale inside the boiler. Simply because there is scale on the outside, signifies that the leak has dripped away and evaporated for a considerable amount of time leaving the deposits that you see. I do not know for sure, but I think Osmio designed the Zero work without changing filters and remineralising on a regular basis. I have ordered one of those measuring things but I am pretty confident the scale build up is nothing to do with the Osmio underperforming!

> @"dfk41"#p25532 I have ordered one of those measuring things but I am pretty confident the scale build up is nothing to do with the Osmio underperforming! I am also sure it isn’t anything to do with OZ. It’s a build over time as you say. In addition, we also know regular steaming and a lack of regular flushing / refreshing will accumulate minerals. 😊

@"LMSC"#p25538 On the outside of the boiler though?

@"dfk41"#p25549 Good question mate! It’s the issue surrounding the inlet complicates it. Did the water leak outside at the L joint around the inlet or the water leak inside out (when it boils) or both? I would think it is inside out - more hardness deposits as we steamed and not flushed. The bottom line is - you are good now. With regular flushing, either a cup a day as some of us do or full monthly flush as MRS suggested should do. Only thing is our first two batches of machines’ pipe does not go all the way down to allow a full flesh thru’ the hot water tap. You may ask Systemic’s routine to ascertain the best way to manage as I have also installed a drain valve.

While this is hot, I thought I’d ask something I’ve wondered about for a while. I only use osmio zero with re mineralisation cartridge. I hardly ever steam, maybe once every two weeks or less (I do intend to get more into it though!). I have refreshed the steam boiler water two or three times since getting the Vesuvius about 6 months ago just as a precaution for stale water purposes. Yesterday I removed the remineralisation cartridge, emptied the osmio tank, and refilled the Vesuvius with just ro water after flushing the steam boiler tank out. I will continue using remineralised water as usual from here. Couple of questions: 1. How often should I refresh this water 2. How often does the osmio remineralisation cartridge last Cheers

@"JahLaza"#p25559 Dave has been using RO for more than 10-12 years. He has plenty of actual usage experience than any of us. I am sure, he will advise you. IMO, your refresh cycle is more than sufficient; Re-the mineralisation filter, it should starts losing its’ potency steadily. It depends on how much water you draw from the unit. We draw at least 10-12 litres a day and more during week ends. Ours’ loses its utility in 6 months. Ex: the TDS when we changed the filter in March was 50-60+. Now, it is about 30! However, we won’t change until it shows change filter or the anniversary month in Feb/March Hope it helps. Don’t think it does anything significant.

@"LMSC"#p25564 thanks for that. I use the osmio with remineralisation as my water source. I assumed that was fine and would not cause scaling even if I steamed every day, assuming an approximate alkalinity of 40mg/l and gh around that too. Don’t want to start another one of these conversations here now!! But, in simple terms I figured remineralised osmio will be fine- plug and play. I also figured I’ve less to worry about seeing as I steam so seldom. I guess that thought was challenged when I saw @"dfk41"#4’s photo here but even that isn’t clear cut as noted by @"DavecUK"#1 that the boiler is probably fine inside. I changed my filters last November and intend to leave alone until I get a warning light to change them or around November seeing as a year has been suggested as a good time to change them if they last that long (I noticed it was stated here before that from a bacterial point of view that’s recommended). That prompted my question about the lifespan of the remin cartridge but don’t think it will be an issue if it’s done before the others either way. I sterilise it with blank cartridges (and Milton tablets) about half yearly. I’m still very pleased with the osmio and am curious to see if I get the year from the filters, my tap water is about 220 mg/l gh I think

Keep the Osmio Zero water (without mineralisation)

dfk41

LMSC Change all the filter when OZ flashes or on the anniversary month of year, which ever comes first. Because, the filters must be changed at least once a year.

I thought you changed filters when the performance dropped? The Osmio is pre-programmed to tell you to change the filters around the 12 month anniversary, but that does not mean they do need to be changed. If you only draw 5 litres a week will they need changed even though it tells you?

LMSC

dfk41 I thought you changed filters when the performance dropped? The Osmio is pre-programmed to tell you to change the filters around the 12 month anniversary, but that does not mean they do need to be changed. If you only draw 5 litres a week will they need changed even though it tells you?

I think Osmio recommends changing filters every 6 months or when the filter change flashes.
Anniversary filter change is definitely required, if the filter has not been changed before or the filter change flash did not kick-in.
Changing filter based on performance loss requires regular (say, monthly) testing of the water. The Osmio Team can advise what their performance yard stick is for changing the filter.
If feeding hard water, I think the Osmio Zero might flash filter change regularly. They also recommend descaling the unit.

Please check the manual or best give them a call. They can guide you on the filter change.

We feed softened water and changed the filters after 1 year. Unless, the unit flashes, we plan to change the filters once a year. Thx

Eiffel

I’m not sure the OZ is actually programmed to tell to change the filters every 12 months. I’ve owned mine for over 15 months and I’ve yet to see the indication light turn on. It might be because I don’t draw much water or because I drain it and remove the cartridges when I’m away from home for a week or more.

As TDS remain in the 30-40 range with the remineralisation cartridge, the filters must still be working…

JahLaza

LMSC I just tested the output from my osmio zero with api kit.

Filters are 9 months old

I feed tap water which is supposedly 220 ppm caco3 hardness according to online (I got 140ppm kh when I tested with the api at one stage)

I descaled (it was news to me that this is recommended I was just browsing online and noticed this) at 6 months

cleaned through with Milton at 3 and 6 months

Today got gh of 44.8 and kh of 40, using 20ml samples from the unit. I guess it’s doing what it should and is fine for the machine then? I will carry on regardless and refresh the steam boiler every few months

dfk41

LMSC I think Osmio recommends changing filters every 6 months or when the filter change flashes.

Can you check that fact matey. I thought the service light came on around the 12 month period

LMSC

JahLaza Today got gh of 44.8 and kh of 40, using 20ml samples from the unit. I guess it’s doing what it should and is fine for the machine then? I will carry on regardless and refresh the steam boiler every few months

Regular descaling helped you as you are feeding a hard water.

I assume the 44.8 mg/l of GH and 40 mg/l of KH are with the mineralisation cartridge and the result you posted is for 5 ml = (number lf drops * 17.9) / 4.

I am thinking if the GH is a bit on the higher side. Unless @Rob1 thinks otherwise, your routine is good.

Rob1

JahLaza

Will scale in a service boiler at 125c quite quickly, probably less than a week if you steam for one flat white a day, but brew boiler is fine.

Consider just descaling the service boiler.

How much scale you can get is not possible to calculate as you don’t know what the added alkalinity is from….bioceramics could be silicates or phosphates. In any case, as the pure RO has alkalinity from carbonates, there will be at least some scale potential.

CoyoteOldMan

dfk41 From the Osmio manual https://www.osmiowater.co.uk/manuals/Osmio_Zero-IP-II_Manual.pdf

LMSC

dfk41 I spoke to Mark in detail. The summary of the discussion is given below:

The filter change sequence is descale —> sanitise —> filter change. The instructions are available online.
The filter change is a function of water usage. The maintenance light will pop up after 2000L. In cases of low usage, the light won’t pop up; and, their recommendation is change in any case every 6 months.
They don’t recommend using their unit if the CaCO3 is greater than 250. The 1 and 2 applies in this case.
If the unit is used on locations where the hardness is > 250 CaCO3, the maintenance light or all lights will flash. This indicates a blockage in the filters. The sequence for this scenario is descale —> Sanitise —> Carbon Filter change —> Reset —> RO Filter —> Reset. The other filters are only need to be changed every 6 months. The users will also have to descale every 2-3 months in this case.

All instructions are available online.

Edit:

I hope I heard 2000L properly.

JahLaza

LMSC I assume the 44.8 mg/l of GH and 40 mg/l of KH are with the mineralisation cartridge and the result you posted is for 5 ml = (number lf drops * 17.9) / 4.

Yep spot on

LMSC

@Rob1

The description of the mineralisation filter on their website is as follows:

Quick-Change Insertion Filters: Hygiene After-filter antibacterial calcium and magnesium bioceramics, adding a small 10-20 ppm of minerals.

Not sure, it clarifies anything without the actual content!

As I spoke to Mark from Osmio for another reason, I asked him this. He went quiet, did not confirm if these are from calcium carbonate or organic sources, paused and shared with me his experience at home.

He feeds hard water and output from the mineralised RO is 54 mg/l of GH and KH respectively. He doesn’t think this can scale the espresso machine.

It is all up in the air! 😊

dutchy101

LMSC You can open the hot water from your machine - once a month or every 5-6 weeks, flush all the water out and replace it fresh Pure RO.

I am expecting delivery of my Skuma next month, so reading this with interest.

I have a Minima and really don’t want to feed it manually so I think doing this would need to be via the main tank. I suppose I could drain the service boiler, then fill the service boiler with the unmineralised RO water and then empty the water tank once the service boiler has filled and fill again with the mineralised RO water. Am I understanding this correctly?

LMSC

dutchy101 I suppose I could drain the service boiler, then fill the service boiler with the unmineralised RO water and then empty the water tank once the service boiler has filled and fill again with the mineralised RO water. Am I understanding this correctly?

Yes! If there is an internal water tank in Skuma, you need to get that out to provide a pure RO to your minima.

Usually, I don’t bother emptying the unused Pure RO from the espresso machine water tank.

dutchy101 Skuma next month

We are all looking forward to your detailed review mate! 😊

dutchy101

LMSC Yes! If there is an internal water tank in Skuma, you need to get that out to provide a pure RO to your minima.

There’s a function on the machine to dispense pure RO water (without the added minerals) by holding down the button for 2 seconds or so - presumably this will be fine to do?

LMSC Usually, I don’t bother emptying the unused Pure RO from the espresso machine water tank.

Music to my ears - if it tastes OK I suppose there’s no reason to.

Thanks for the help!

coffeealex

Rob1 Could he minimise the scaling of the service boiler by refreshing the water in the service boiler ie opening the water tap after steaming or am I missing the point?

JahLaza

Rob1 was really hoping the use of osmio would negate the need for any of that but I’ll do what I need to, to keep everything in order! I might just use ro or di water for a few weeks instead of any descaling (I think I might have access to some lab de ionised water) and that might clear things up?

Rob1

coffeealex In this case it would be a very frequent and large amount of water to waste.

@JahLaza but then you’d be making coffee with that too…

coffeealex

Rob1 Have a look at the post I just made and help me please just to fill the dots .

JahLaza

Rob1 but then you’d be making coffee with that too…

I would just make espresso and top up with remineralised from the oz (I mostly drink Americanos),maybe it would make a difference,probably not for the 30 odd gms of said liquid?

Unless the extraction changes?… apologies I really should take notes from the various discussions on this,I fully appreciate any help you can give as I know you’ve had to repeat yourself man many times before on this topic

coffeealex

I read these posts and there is a lot of info and some of it can to me at least seem confusing. There are mentions of KH and GH and alkalinity. I thought to ensure i keep my machine at the minimum level of scaling: i do the following

Buy a water hardness kit but not the strips
Start by measuring the hardness of my tap water as a CaCO3 figure with the kit
pour the tap water in to either a skuma or OZ ( leave out the jug versions for this)
extract the water from the RO machine with all filters installed ie mineral filter included
take another reading of the hardness and ensure it is no higher than 80 ( around the 40-80 mgl mark)
Pour that water into the water tank of the espresso machine
if using steaming periodically then flush some water from the hot tap so that the minerals in the service boiler are not accumulating.
Once every 3 months recycle the water in the service boiler with fresh RO water so that very few minerals are left
Alternatively use RO water with no minerals. But in this case add bicarbonate of soda to act as an anti corrosive property in the RO water.
If your machine has stainless steel boilers then there is no need to add bicarbonate of soda as no corrosion will take place but you may still want to add it to improve taste

I have tried to simplify the procedure so that it keeps scaling to a minimum. Would the above work? or is it over simplified?

Rob1

JahLaza If you are just making americanos the water is ok and your 6 month refresh would be fine…probably. Probably better off just topping up from the osmio rather than using the service boiler just for energy efficiency.

coffeealex take another reading of the hardness and ensure it is no higher than 80 ( around the 40-80 mgl mark)

Not sure where you got that from. For the service boiler you’ll want hardness to be less than 40mg/l really if your alkalinity is 40mg/l too, but ideally, the hardness will be 0. While at 40KH you can have hardness up to 52GH at 125c, a very small increase in alkalinity will see the scaling potential increase quickly e.g 43KH at 125c and the threshold drops to 43GH…

So for service boilers water hardness is ideally 0 with 40mg/l or more alkalinity, and for brewing espresso you’ll get good results too. Adding hardness in means flushing/monitoring a service boiler and/or descaling.

coffeealex If your machine has stainless steel boilers then there is no need to add bicarbonate of soda as no corrosion will take place but you may still want to add it to improve taste

Stainless steel isn’t quite as corrosion resistant as surgical steel and you have other things though like copper pipes and solenoids, a brass group etc. Not a great idea to be putting distilled or straight RO through a machine. I pour it directly into the service boiler, it’s not completely risk-free, but it doesn’t stay pure for very long.

People who refresh the service boiler and use the remineralisation filter seem to be doing fine. If you want to just add bicarb you’ll probably be pleased with the results too. There’s no real need to complicate things.

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