I had bought a Gaggia Classic (2012 or 2014 model I think it is), with all the necessary mods already in place (PID, OPV fitted, Rancilio steam wand). For a while I used it regularly but then I put it away and used my bean to cup exclusively. Recently went to my cousin's house who has a Sage Barista Express and he made me coffee (Union Roasted Christmas blend, Baked Apple, Cinnamon, Cocoa notes). It tasted miles better than what the bean to cup produces, not a surprise. What was a complete surprise though was it looked like it would be awful tasting. Shot ran really quickly, water, and he had absolutely no clue about ratios. That gave me an incentive to dig my Gaggia out again. Recently bought the cheap single dose SPTK 38 grinder based on Dave's review of it, to use with the Gaggia. I'm pulling decent ratio (1-2.5), in about 30 seconds. Liquid pours after about 7 seconds. But it tastes meh. I've tried various different adjustments, sometimes I get a nice result, sometimes not. What I have noticed consistently is that the temperature on the PID display drops mid shot. But this drop varies from shot to shot. Sometimes 1-2 degrees, sometimes 3 degrees, sometimes the drop occurs slowly, sometimes quickly. When I bought this Gaggia, it was always only as a stepping stone to a better espresso machine. Recently I've been eyeing up the Lelit Mara X2. Would I get better results with the Lelit?

Not a Gaggia user so others may chip in but I don't think a 2-3c decrease in pid temp is particularly out of the ordinary. I'd also guess it's not what's at fault here but either way more info would be helpful. It would be helpful to hear what about it tastes bad and what type of beans you're using. And what starting temp are your brewing at?

The beans are Union Roasted, Christmas blend, which they state as medium roast - certainly doesn't look dark. I started with 96degC (I saw this drop to 93 at one point) but then adjust it to 95 (with the hope it will settle between 93-94). Initially I was aiming for 1:2 ration in 25-30sec but then I updosed, grind slightly coarser, and increased the dose (that's what one of the espresso help guides I read indicated based on what I was tasting). What I was tasting was no sweetness at all, struggling to taste the notes indicated, and it tasted under extracted (sour). I first tried grinding finer (only a notch to start with) but then that made it taste more bitter, I never got the sweetness. That when I decided to get help from online guides (regarding how to adjust based on what you are tasting). My very first started was 14g in, aiming for 28-30g out, in 30 seconds. What I have no eventually ended up with is 15.5g in, 43g out, 23 seconds and that has been the closest to tasting with some sweetness and closer resemblance to the indicated notes. I'm going to keep the 15.5g in, go half a notch finer for my next one and aim for 45g out, maybe take it to 26ish seconds I think. I'm not sure if that was at all helpful 🙅🏻♂️

@"DrForinor"#p33271 the temp registered on the pid doesn’t always reflect what’s measured at the portafilter for small single boilers. In the manual of my Ito mod there is some scace data on a Rancilio Silvia showing that with no heating during the shot the temperature measured by the pid dropped from 94-88°C, but the scace (I.e. puck temp) rose to 87°C over the first 11s and was then flat for the rest of the shot (if you’re interested then download the “leva! 2.0 for Ito” from http://projectcaffe.bplaced.net/downloads.html, and look in the firmware manual page 57). On the flip side if you can’t disable heating during a shot and the PID is kicking the element on to compensate for the incoming cold water, then you can end up with the water being too hot, especially as the water outlet pipe is usually quite close to the element. The piping also heats up so there is less cooling. The Ito manual stated they measured a 3°C increase in temperature from this effect. In summary, if you can’t disable heating during the shot you could try changing the set point and seeing if that helps. Or perhaps the beans are just meh.

@"DrForinor"#p33276 do the beans have a roast date? If they’re a few months old that won’t help either

The roast date on the bag is 1st Nov 2022

@"DrForinor"#p33280 on the older end then, but not terrible. I usually try to drink all my coffee in the 2 - 6 week post roast window

@"hornbyben"#p33281 What do you do with beans that might be older than 6 weeks? This was the reason for me updosing, and increasing yield (it's what my search revealed for older beans), and it certainly improved it for me.

@"DrForinor"#p33282 accept poorer flavour if I end up in that position, and try to buy fresher or drink quicker next time. If I know I definitely won’t be able to (like decaf that I keep in for guests) then I freeze them. Most decent roasters will send you coffee less than a week from roast (assuming Royal Mail don’t take forever to actually get it to you).

I used to set my PID to 102 degrees to allow for the tail off in temp. You could try that to see if the flavour improves or not.

@"Jollybean"#p33293 Thank you, I'll try that. Given the drawbacks that still exist in a Gaggia with a PID, (and keeping in mind that I always knew the Gaggia would only be a stepping stone), would the Lelit Mara X2 be a worthy upgrade? I don't steam much milk. Usually make my espresso, add water from the kettle as much as I need them add milk straight from the fridge. But I want a machine that will give me consistency without me worrying about it or having to make unnecessary adjustments for the lack of consistency.

Gaggia woes

dndrich

So many variables. Dose and headroom will matter. The coffee itself will matter. Grind. And, are you using the new IMS basket, or the stock basket? The stock basket has some nice sloping so the puck drops out really well for me.

DrForinor

dndrich The funny thing is, I moved from my IMS basket to the standard Elizabeth double basket - and that gave me a worse puck than in the IMS basket 😅😅

dndrich

Well, part of the fun is that coffee is a dynamic product. We aim for consistency, but all we really want is a way to make nice cups. Your machine can do that and more! I’m using a very nice medium roast from Verve in Santa Cruz, CA. Very predictable classic flavor for coffee and espresso. Nice arabica blend.

DrForinor

dndrich You are right, we only need a tasty cup. Though I can’t help but want perfection in every aspect of the process, OCD maybe? 😅😅

Have made 4 cups today, today being the second day I’ve made coffee with it, and 1 last night. Out of the 5 total, only 1 was “dodgy” tasting. The other 4 were perfectly drinkable, not amazing by any means but good. In that regard I cannot complain - but I can’t help myself, I have a “need” to know why something is happening (or not happening).

Tried 2 different coffee beans in it so far. Will try a different 3rd coffee bean tomorrow. I think the pre-infusion is definitely helping to get a fair bit of sweetness from the beans.

Also the first time I’ve tried steaming milk, a lot to learn.

DrForinor

It’s also much more pleasant to make coffee in the Elizabeth, than it was in the Gaggia. How is that possible, the process is the same? I wasn’t making any milk drinks in the Gaggia so no steaming at all.

I found the Gaggia slightly stressful (perhaps too strong a word) but in this it’s a pleasure.

DavecUK

DrForinor It’s also much more pleasant to make coffee in the Elizabeth, than it was in the Gaggia. How is that possible

I’ve said it many times, the more expensive machines are just much easier to use, and much more pleasurable to use. I think it’s because they have a level of refinement the cheaper machines obviously don’t have. The ratio of successful to unsuccessful coffees also seems to go up, of course there is a point of diminishing returns.

DrForinor What would be the deciding factor in choosing a steam pressure pre-infusion, vs a non steam pressure bloom

This is part of the joy of owning a more advanced machine, you can actually experiment. For that particular coffee you have no one really knows, but the fun is in trying stuff out to see whether it improves things in the cup or not.

DrForinor

What would be the deciding factor in choosing a steam pressure pre-infusion, vs a non steam pressure bloom phase for the pre-infusion?

Yorkie_Al

DrForinor whichever method gives the better tasting coffee. You have two buttons on the Elizabeth which can be programmed. I have one set for steam and one set for bloom phase. I try them both when using a new bean or batch of beans and decide which I prefer.

DrForinor

DavecUK You are so right!! I tightened up my grind (because yesterday’s grind was a little too coarse for the steam pressured pre-infusion) and then last second I decided to try the non steam pressured bloom phase (not taking into account I had ground finer). My timer for that button was set to 50 seconds, I got 16.7g out (for 16.5g in) and it was still drinkable!!!!! That’s amazing!! Just mind blowing coming from the Gaggia! I’m in love with this machine!

DrForinor

Yorkie_Al How do you set one for steam and the other for bloom? I thought the only way was to switch the steam boiler off?

DrForinor

Can anyone please tell me why I have water in this shot? The only other time I saw this was when I tried the bloom phase, and this was the bloom phase again. Have I not tightened the PF enough?

16.5g in, 36.3g out in 35 sec, including 6 sec water in, 6 sec bloom.

DavecUK

DrForinor The water from the left spout has actually run down from outside the portafilter and dropped into the left spout. You have noticed it because it’s there before the coffee starts to flow. You can see the drops continuing to add themselves to the stream of coffee on the left.

I’d definitely remove the sticker…they can tarnish and on E61 machines I have seen the chrome actually pitted under a well blackened hot sticker

Apparently cafelat gaskets do work really well on Liz, although I have never used one…I intend to pick some up from Lelit when I am next in Brescia, hopefully in the spring.

Cuprajake

umm, id say not locked in far enough,

DrForinor

Cuprajake Yeh that was my initial guess. But I have water coming through the left spout also?

Is it best to remove that “lock” sticker?

Cuprajake

prob just a drip, id bet they do a silicone cafelat seal for it, more robust,

id leave or remove the sticker all together,

DrForinor

I did ask BB if they have a Cafelat silicone seal but he wasn’t sure. I can tighten it further but then I’m able to go past that sticker point.

DavecUK

DrForinor I did ask BB if they have a Cafelat silicone seal but he wasn’t sure. I can tighten it further but then I’m able to go past that sticker point.

Going past the sticker point is 1000% fine to do. It should be tight, or it will leak.

hornbyben

@DrForinor, did you make sure there were no coffee grinds on the rim of the portafilter before locking it in, as these can also cause small leaks. Probably just needs locking tighter though.

DrForinor

hornbyben This is something that I do check as it annoys me. So without a doubt nothing of significance. But yes I’ll be sure to tighten it properly. I will upgrade the seal though.

DrForinor

Regarding shots that include pre-infusion, what are the general rules to follow re timing? Ie, without pre-infusion it’s generally good ballpark figure for around 30 seconds (for argument sake), how does it work with pre-infusion?

I’ve tried a couple of coffees with non steam pressured pre-infusion and I really enjoyed it so I want to get better using this method. Six seconds water, six seconds no water, then the pressure starts. How do I account for those inital 12 seconds versus a standard time?

DavecUK

DrForinor Six seconds water, six seconds no water, then the pressure starts. How do I account for those inital 12 seconds versus a standard time?

If we imagine a standard shot (no bloom phase taking 28s. Adding preinfusion of 12 seconds I would try 34s total time from pressing the shot button, and see how it was. In effect the 12s bloom phase counting as only 6 seconds. I would work my way up and down from there.

If I found it over extracted, I might try 31s or under extracted 39s…

I would tend to count those 12 seconds as 3 seconds off the shot time and work the total shot time from there.

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