I had bought a Gaggia Classic (2012 or 2014 model I think it is), with all the necessary mods already in place (PID, OPV fitted, Rancilio steam wand). For a while I used it regularly but then I put it away and used my bean to cup exclusively. Recently went to my cousin's house who has a Sage Barista Express and he made me coffee (Union Roasted Christmas blend, Baked Apple, Cinnamon, Cocoa notes). It tasted miles better than what the bean to cup produces, not a surprise. What was a complete surprise though was it looked like it would be awful tasting. Shot ran really quickly, water, and he had absolutely no clue about ratios. That gave me an incentive to dig my Gaggia out again. Recently bought the cheap single dose SPTK 38 grinder based on Dave's review of it, to use with the Gaggia. I'm pulling decent ratio (1-2.5), in about 30 seconds. Liquid pours after about 7 seconds. But it tastes meh. I've tried various different adjustments, sometimes I get a nice result, sometimes not. What I have noticed consistently is that the temperature on the PID display drops mid shot. But this drop varies from shot to shot. Sometimes 1-2 degrees, sometimes 3 degrees, sometimes the drop occurs slowly, sometimes quickly. When I bought this Gaggia, it was always only as a stepping stone to a better espresso machine. Recently I've been eyeing up the Lelit Mara X2. Would I get better results with the Lelit?

Not a Gaggia user so others may chip in but I don't think a 2-3c decrease in pid temp is particularly out of the ordinary. I'd also guess it's not what's at fault here but either way more info would be helpful. It would be helpful to hear what about it tastes bad and what type of beans you're using. And what starting temp are your brewing at?

The beans are Union Roasted, Christmas blend, which they state as medium roast - certainly doesn't look dark. I started with 96degC (I saw this drop to 93 at one point) but then adjust it to 95 (with the hope it will settle between 93-94). Initially I was aiming for 1:2 ration in 25-30sec but then I updosed, grind slightly coarser, and increased the dose (that's what one of the espresso help guides I read indicated based on what I was tasting). What I was tasting was no sweetness at all, struggling to taste the notes indicated, and it tasted under extracted (sour). I first tried grinding finer (only a notch to start with) but then that made it taste more bitter, I never got the sweetness. That when I decided to get help from online guides (regarding how to adjust based on what you are tasting). My very first started was 14g in, aiming for 28-30g out, in 30 seconds. What I have no eventually ended up with is 15.5g in, 43g out, 23 seconds and that has been the closest to tasting with some sweetness and closer resemblance to the indicated notes. I'm going to keep the 15.5g in, go half a notch finer for my next one and aim for 45g out, maybe take it to 26ish seconds I think. I'm not sure if that was at all helpful 🙅🏻♂️

@"DrForinor"#p33271 the temp registered on the pid doesn’t always reflect what’s measured at the portafilter for small single boilers. In the manual of my Ito mod there is some scace data on a Rancilio Silvia showing that with no heating during the shot the temperature measured by the pid dropped from 94-88°C, but the scace (I.e. puck temp) rose to 87°C over the first 11s and was then flat for the rest of the shot (if you’re interested then download the “leva! 2.0 for Ito” from http://projectcaffe.bplaced.net/downloads.html, and look in the firmware manual page 57). On the flip side if you can’t disable heating during a shot and the PID is kicking the element on to compensate for the incoming cold water, then you can end up with the water being too hot, especially as the water outlet pipe is usually quite close to the element. The piping also heats up so there is less cooling. The Ito manual stated they measured a 3°C increase in temperature from this effect. In summary, if you can’t disable heating during the shot you could try changing the set point and seeing if that helps. Or perhaps the beans are just meh.

@"DrForinor"#p33276 do the beans have a roast date? If they’re a few months old that won’t help either

The roast date on the bag is 1st Nov 2022

@"DrForinor"#p33280 on the older end then, but not terrible. I usually try to drink all my coffee in the 2 - 6 week post roast window

@"hornbyben"#p33281 What do you do with beans that might be older than 6 weeks? This was the reason for me updosing, and increasing yield (it's what my search revealed for older beans), and it certainly improved it for me.

@"DrForinor"#p33282 accept poorer flavour if I end up in that position, and try to buy fresher or drink quicker next time. If I know I definitely won’t be able to (like decaf that I keep in for guests) then I freeze them. Most decent roasters will send you coffee less than a week from roast (assuming Royal Mail don’t take forever to actually get it to you).

I used to set my PID to 102 degrees to allow for the tail off in temp. You could try that to see if the flavour improves or not.

@"Jollybean"#p33293 Thank you, I'll try that. Given the drawbacks that still exist in a Gaggia with a PID, (and keeping in mind that I always knew the Gaggia would only be a stepping stone), would the Lelit Mara X2 be a worthy upgrade? I don't steam much milk. Usually make my espresso, add water from the kettle as much as I need them add milk straight from the fridge. But I want a machine that will give me consistency without me worrying about it or having to make unnecessary adjustments for the lack of consistency.

Gaggia woes

DrForinor

Can anyone please tell me why I have water in this shot? The only other time I saw this was when I tried the bloom phase, and this was the bloom phase again. Have I not tightened the PF enough?

16.5g in, 36.3g out in 35 sec, including 6 sec water in, 6 sec bloom.

DavecUK

DrForinor The water from the left spout has actually run down from outside the portafilter and dropped into the left spout. You have noticed it because it’s there before the coffee starts to flow. You can see the drops continuing to add themselves to the stream of coffee on the left.

I’d definitely remove the sticker…they can tarnish and on E61 machines I have seen the chrome actually pitted under a well blackened hot sticker

Apparently cafelat gaskets do work really well on Liz, although I have never used one…I intend to pick some up from Lelit when I am next in Brescia, hopefully in the spring.

Cuprajake

umm, id say not locked in far enough,

DrForinor

Cuprajake Yeh that was my initial guess. But I have water coming through the left spout also?

Is it best to remove that “lock” sticker?

Cuprajake

prob just a drip, id bet they do a silicone cafelat seal for it, more robust,

id leave or remove the sticker all together,

DrForinor

I did ask BB if they have a Cafelat silicone seal but he wasn’t sure. I can tighten it further but then I’m able to go past that sticker point.

DavecUK

DrForinor I did ask BB if they have a Cafelat silicone seal but he wasn’t sure. I can tighten it further but then I’m able to go past that sticker point.

Going past the sticker point is 1000% fine to do. It should be tight, or it will leak.

hornbyben

@DrForinor, did you make sure there were no coffee grinds on the rim of the portafilter before locking it in, as these can also cause small leaks. Probably just needs locking tighter though.

DrForinor

hornbyben This is something that I do check as it annoys me. So without a doubt nothing of significance. But yes I’ll be sure to tighten it properly. I will upgrade the seal though.

DrForinor

Regarding shots that include pre-infusion, what are the general rules to follow re timing? Ie, without pre-infusion it’s generally good ballpark figure for around 30 seconds (for argument sake), how does it work with pre-infusion?

I’ve tried a couple of coffees with non steam pressured pre-infusion and I really enjoyed it so I want to get better using this method. Six seconds water, six seconds no water, then the pressure starts. How do I account for those inital 12 seconds versus a standard time?

DavecUK

DrForinor Six seconds water, six seconds no water, then the pressure starts. How do I account for those inital 12 seconds versus a standard time?

If we imagine a standard shot (no bloom phase taking 28s. Adding preinfusion of 12 seconds I would try 34s total time from pressing the shot button, and see how it was. In effect the 12s bloom phase counting as only 6 seconds. I would work my way up and down from there.

If I found it over extracted, I might try 31s or under extracted 39s…

I would tend to count those 12 seconds as 3 seconds off the shot time and work the total shot time from there.

Cuprajake

Just add it in, no hard and fast rule, you’ll soon get to know what you like, and your machine

Like if I did a 12s infusion on my leva it would taste horrid haha

Sounds like you’re doing great and having fun too😁👍👍

DrForinor

Cuprajake Honestly I love my Lizzy!!! I regret buying a bean to cup (I bought a second one only a few months ago, after my first one died) and I regret buying the Gaggia, I should have went straight to this.

The coffee machine at work (bean to cup) I normally am happy with it’s coffee. Today, first day back after the festive holidays (and after a few days of using my Liz) I was disappointingly underwhelmed at how mediocre the coffee tasted (I always only use my own beans so I know the beans were not an issue).

I am thoroughly enjoying my machine. My initial apprehension in getting a machine this expensive was because I had a hard time understanding how I would cope - given I found making coffee in the Gaggia a tad stressful.

However, the Lizzy has completely won me over! In the Gaggia I hadn’t dreamt of steaming milk because making espresso in it was enough to keep my brain busy, but I’ve already steamed milk 3 times in the Liz (for someone who doesn’t drink milk based coffees) and improved each time.

DavecUK Excellent, gives me a good base to work with, thanks. :)

hornbyben

DrForinor glad you’re enjoying it

CoyoteOldMan

DrForinor I was disappointingly underwhelmed at how mediocre the coffee tasted

Have you been to your cousin’s yet? That would be the litmus test for me… (just based on your initial post here)

DrForinor

CoyoteOldMan He is a couple of hours drive away from me, so I don’t go often. Though you are completely right, that would be the test for me also. Even if it tastes the same, I’m happy as I can still grow with my Liz and have plenty of options to change my coffee output taste - his machine is still a lot more limited.

One of the posts in this thread pointed out that a Sage will still limit what I am able to do, and I wholeheartedly agree.

DrForinor

The bottomless PF that I had for my Gaggia doesn’t fit my Elizabeth, it goes too far to the left for me to slot it in. That’s normal, I’m not losing my mind here?

Also the lugs (?) seem to be fatter/thicker for the Gaggia PF when compared to the Lelit PF?

DavecUK

DrForinor Gaggia PFs are slightly “non standard”, sort of Gaggia like really.

MediumRoastSteam

DrForinor - as Dave says, Gaggia portafilter are not E61 standard as the lugs are in a different place, as in 2 and 8 o’clock rather than 3 and 9 o’clock.

DrForinor

But any standard E61 PF should fit the Elizabeth fine? I really don’t like the standard one.

MediumRoastSteam

DrForinor - yes, ish. Some with thicker lugs won’t fit, but in essence, any E61 should fit just fine.

I use an ECM one. I’ve tried Rocket. Of course E61 lelit ones will fit too.

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