I had bought a Gaggia Classic (2012 or 2014 model I think it is), with all the necessary mods already in place (PID, OPV fitted, Rancilio steam wand). For a while I used it regularly but then I put it away and used my bean to cup exclusively. Recently went to my cousin's house who has a Sage Barista Express and he made me coffee (Union Roasted Christmas blend, Baked Apple, Cinnamon, Cocoa notes). It tasted miles better than what the bean to cup produces, not a surprise. What was a complete surprise though was it looked like it would be awful tasting. Shot ran really quickly, water, and he had absolutely no clue about ratios. That gave me an incentive to dig my Gaggia out again. Recently bought the cheap single dose SPTK 38 grinder based on Dave's review of it, to use with the Gaggia. I'm pulling decent ratio (1-2.5), in about 30 seconds. Liquid pours after about 7 seconds. But it tastes meh. I've tried various different adjustments, sometimes I get a nice result, sometimes not. What I have noticed consistently is that the temperature on the PID display drops mid shot. But this drop varies from shot to shot. Sometimes 1-2 degrees, sometimes 3 degrees, sometimes the drop occurs slowly, sometimes quickly. When I bought this Gaggia, it was always only as a stepping stone to a better espresso machine. Recently I've been eyeing up the Lelit Mara X2. Would I get better results with the Lelit?

Not a Gaggia user so others may chip in but I don't think a 2-3c decrease in pid temp is particularly out of the ordinary. I'd also guess it's not what's at fault here but either way more info would be helpful. It would be helpful to hear what about it tastes bad and what type of beans you're using. And what starting temp are your brewing at?

The beans are Union Roasted, Christmas blend, which they state as medium roast - certainly doesn't look dark. I started with 96degC (I saw this drop to 93 at one point) but then adjust it to 95 (with the hope it will settle between 93-94). Initially I was aiming for 1:2 ration in 25-30sec but then I updosed, grind slightly coarser, and increased the dose (that's what one of the espresso help guides I read indicated based on what I was tasting). What I was tasting was no sweetness at all, struggling to taste the notes indicated, and it tasted under extracted (sour). I first tried grinding finer (only a notch to start with) but then that made it taste more bitter, I never got the sweetness. That when I decided to get help from online guides (regarding how to adjust based on what you are tasting). My very first started was 14g in, aiming for 28-30g out, in 30 seconds. What I have no eventually ended up with is 15.5g in, 43g out, 23 seconds and that has been the closest to tasting with some sweetness and closer resemblance to the indicated notes. I'm going to keep the 15.5g in, go half a notch finer for my next one and aim for 45g out, maybe take it to 26ish seconds I think. I'm not sure if that was at all helpful 🙅🏻♂️

@"DrForinor"#p33271 the temp registered on the pid doesn’t always reflect what’s measured at the portafilter for small single boilers. In the manual of my Ito mod there is some scace data on a Rancilio Silvia showing that with no heating during the shot the temperature measured by the pid dropped from 94-88°C, but the scace (I.e. puck temp) rose to 87°C over the first 11s and was then flat for the rest of the shot (if you’re interested then download the “leva! 2.0 for Ito” from http://projectcaffe.bplaced.net/downloads.html, and look in the firmware manual page 57). On the flip side if you can’t disable heating during a shot and the PID is kicking the element on to compensate for the incoming cold water, then you can end up with the water being too hot, especially as the water outlet pipe is usually quite close to the element. The piping also heats up so there is less cooling. The Ito manual stated they measured a 3°C increase in temperature from this effect. In summary, if you can’t disable heating during the shot you could try changing the set point and seeing if that helps. Or perhaps the beans are just meh.

@"DrForinor"#p33276 do the beans have a roast date? If they’re a few months old that won’t help either

The roast date on the bag is 1st Nov 2022

@"DrForinor"#p33280 on the older end then, but not terrible. I usually try to drink all my coffee in the 2 - 6 week post roast window

@"hornbyben"#p33281 What do you do with beans that might be older than 6 weeks? This was the reason for me updosing, and increasing yield (it's what my search revealed for older beans), and it certainly improved it for me.

@"DrForinor"#p33282 accept poorer flavour if I end up in that position, and try to buy fresher or drink quicker next time. If I know I definitely won’t be able to (like decaf that I keep in for guests) then I freeze them. Most decent roasters will send you coffee less than a week from roast (assuming Royal Mail don’t take forever to actually get it to you).

I used to set my PID to 102 degrees to allow for the tail off in temp. You could try that to see if the flavour improves or not.

@"Jollybean"#p33293 Thank you, I'll try that. Given the drawbacks that still exist in a Gaggia with a PID, (and keeping in mind that I always knew the Gaggia would only be a stepping stone), would the Lelit Mara X2 be a worthy upgrade? I don't steam much milk. Usually make my espresso, add water from the kettle as much as I need them add milk straight from the fridge. But I want a machine that will give me consistency without me worrying about it or having to make unnecessary adjustments for the lack of consistency.

Gaggia woes

FadedFrontiers

DrForinor no I was talking about the ACS Minima, but with both machines you can change the OPV to decrease brew pressure to 9 bar.

DrForinor

Briefly, how do I choose between the Elizabeth and the Minima? Which questions do I need the answers to, to know which suits me best?

DrForinor

Which one (from the Mara, Elizabeth & Minima) will give me an easier life in terms of consistency (and ease of that consistency), reliability, and maintenance?

Cuprajake

Elizabeth and minima are neck and neck

The minima has bigger boilers

But it’s really down to which you prefer and how quick you want it

Please look into good water.

DrForinor

In terms of speed, I am in no rush.

Water wise, I am in Aberdeen (soft water) and I have a filter connected to my water tap.

DrForinor

The only information I can find in regards to the Lelit Elizabeth (concerning pressure) is that it’s 15 bar, is this correct? If I decide to opt for this, is it wise to get the retailer to adjust this before sending it up (if it’s a complicated process)?

FadedFrontiers

DrForinor it should be straightforward but no harm asking them if you don’t want to do it yourself, but I’d recommend getting to know the machine and what the parts do as you’ll need to carry out some form of maintenance on any machine you get to ensure the longest lifespan:

ECM are meant to be reliable machines but I think that one you mentioned a single boiler (and a pricey one at that) so would avoid. As mentioned DB is the one I’d recommend because you can switch the steam off when you’re not using it and will generally get the best heat stability for pulling shots.

CoyoteOldMan

DrForinor I don’t believe either the Elizabeth or the Minima are set up to brew at 15 bar; I think it’s the pump’s maximum achievable pressure. If you are buying new, I’d ask the retailer to set the machine up at whatever pressure you want, but adjustment is an easy process for both:

Minima:

Elizabeth:

DrForinor

How does the ECM Classika PID Espresso machine fare?

DrForinor

Thank you both for your replies.

I’m still teetering between the Elizabeth and the Mara, and trying to decide which works best for me. I do very much like the idea of the built in pre-infusion capability of the Elizabeth. And while I’m not mad on the looks of the Elizabeth, it would fit my kitchen space better.

Are there any big negatives about the Elizabeth I should be aware of?

Cuprajake

Mara is a very backwards step compared to the Elizabeth

DrForinor

Cuprajake

Ah, I didn’t realise. Clear winner for the Elizabeth then I suppose?

Cuprajake

The dual boiler just adds so much more temp stability to brewing. And that for me is massive

DrForinor

Considering the temperature stability is my primary concern with my Gaggia, that sounds like a huge attraction for the Elizabeth if the temperature stability is solid. Thank you.

hornbyben

I know I’m perhaps the outlier here, but I don’t buy that a dual boiler is more temp stable than a single boiler for brewing. The bigger the boiler the higher the stability as incoming water has less impact on the temp, and a PID gives better control than a thermostat, but one vs two boilers has no impact. I think it’s more that quite a lot of the single boilers are aiming at the low cost end of the market.

The real advantage on a dual boiler is they’re quicker for back to milk drinks. I think it really depends on the use case. If you’re only doing espressos or one/two milk drinks there isn’t much difference. If you’re doing lots of milk drinks a double boiler is a clear winner.

Assuming you’re ok with a minor wait to hit steaming temp (usually no longer than it takes to clean the portafilter and weigh out the milk) then single boilers have some definite advantages:

cheaper to buy (or you’d expect better components)
cheaper to run, as for steaming you’re only heating the water by about 40°C, from brew temp to steam temp, not from ambient. As an example:
Single boiler flat white with my Silvia (all energy figure based on no loses and 20°C water tank, not accounting for the reheating the water from the shot as this should be the same, real world figures in both cases would be higher)
- Heat 300ml brew boiler to 90°C [24.4 Wh]
- Heating the 300ml from 90°C to 130°C for steaming [197.2 Wh]
- Total for the Silvia = 221.6 wH (or 0.2 kWh). At 50p per kWh electricity prices this would cost 11p in electricity.
Same as above but with a Minima (clearly a great machine, chosen just to demonstrate the difference)
- Heating the 800ml of water in the brew boiler from 20°C to 90°C [65.2 Wh]
- Heating the 2.3L of water in the service boiler from 20°C to 126°C [1694.2 Wh]
- Total for the minima = 1,759.4 Wh [1.8 kWh or 88p]
obviously if you make more drinks the difference decreases as the large boilers will stay warm, but if you have one flat white a day the Minima will be £281 per year more expensive to run in electricity alone.
Single boilers are usually easier to descale as well, so you don’t have to be as careful with water, a further saving.

Obviously people have to decide the right compromise for them, but I think it’s very tempting to default to a dual boiler because why not, without thinking what the impact actually is.

DrForinor

hornbyben

That’s a really informative reply, thank you.

You have basically iterated what I thought - but my knowledge isn’t great of the matter so I thought maybe I’m wrong.

My primary drinks are for me, espresso, add water from the kettle, and add milk straight from the fridge. This is how the machine will be used probably 90% of the time. On the occasions when my sister comes over, she will need the use of a steam wand to froth her milk.

I want a machine with a small physical footprint, with absolute solidly stable brewing temperature, temperature that I can control reliably, with the added ability to be able to steam milk (at the very bottom of the priority list but I do need it). I hadn’t considered pre-infusion but after reading about it now (because of the Elizabeth), I feel like it’s something that I would use - but I want it to be easy to use. Shot profiling I’m extremely unlikely to ever use.

Based on that, can the Mara X / ECM Classika PID be contenders? They must be more expensive than the Elizabeth for a reason? What’s the reason?

Cuprajake

There’s also the single boiler Vs hx thing

Most dual boilers you can have the steam boiler off.

Your still moving temps about Vs staying stable. It’s just more convenient

Esp when there’s £100 difference between a mara and liz

If you look at the profitec go for instance it’s a right faff for a milk drink.

hornbyben

DrForinor personally, based on your stated requirements I wouldn’t go for the MaraX, as this is a heat exchanger machine. It’s undoubtedly a good one, and a lot of people are happy with it, but they are less stable as the brew water temperature is set by it flowing through a coil in the steam boiler. Flow faster and the temp is lower, flow slower and the temp will be higher. To be fair, the MaraX is pretty sophisticated and controls this well, but the main advantage of a HX is allowing steaming and espresso brewing without delays, while saving cost versus a double boiler as you only need a single boiler.

I have no direct experience of the ECM, but from what I’ve read they are a very high quality manufacturer and this, plus brand value is why it is more expensive. The classika looks like a nice machine, and with a 750ml brew boiler should give very stable temperatures. Obviously from an energy point of view this will be inbetween my previous examples:

750ml from 20 to 90⁰C is 61 Wh
750ml from 90 to 130⁰C is 493 Wh
Total 554 Wh (0.5 kWh) or approx 25p

It’s probably worth having a look on YouTube and seeing if you can find a video that shows how long it takes to go from brew to steam temp, to make sure you’re happy with the compromise. From a quick Google it looks like it has a 1200 W heating element, which if it’s 100% efficient should take 2 mins and 3 second to heat to steam temp (for comparison the same calculation for my machine is 1 minute 4 seconds due to the smaller boiler and similar power of 1100W). I have no doubt this will be annoying if you’re doing more than 3 milk drinks (as for 3 I’d pull the shots and th we do steam a single larger batch of milk), but is probably a reasonable compromise based on what you expect to use it for.