Briefly, how do I choose between the Elizabeth and the Minima? Which questions do I need the answers to, to know which suits me best?

Which one (from the Mara, Elizabeth & Minima) will give me an easier life in terms of consistency (and ease of that consistency), reliability, and maintenance?

Elizabeth and minima are neck and neck

The minima has bigger boilers

But it’s really down to which you prefer and how quick you want it

Please look into good water.

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In terms of speed, I am in no rush.

Water wise, I am in Aberdeen (soft water) and I have a filter connected to my water tap.

The only information I can find in regards to the Lelit Elizabeth (concerning pressure) is that it’s 15 bar, is this correct? If I decide to opt for this, is it wise to get the retailer to adjust this before sending it up (if it’s a complicated process)?

    How does the ECM Classika PID Espresso machine fare?

    DrForinor it should be straightforward but no harm asking them if you don’t want to do it yourself, but I’d recommend getting to know the machine and what the parts do as you’ll need to carry out some form of maintenance on any machine you get to ensure the longest lifespan:

    ECM are meant to be reliable machines but I think that one you mentioned a single boiler (and a pricey one at that) so would avoid. As mentioned DB is the one I’d recommend because you can switch the steam off when you’re not using it and will generally get the best heat stability for pulling shots.

      DrForinor I don’t believe either the Elizabeth or the Minima are set up to brew at 15 bar; I think it’s the pump’s maximum achievable pressure. If you are buying new, I’d ask the retailer to set the machine up at whatever pressure you want, but adjustment is an easy process for both:

      Minima:

      Elizabeth:

        Thank you both for your replies.

        I’m still teetering between the Elizabeth and the Mara, and trying to decide which works best for me. I do very much like the idea of the built in pre-infusion capability of the Elizabeth. And while I’m not mad on the looks of the Elizabeth, it would fit my kitchen space better.

        Are there any big negatives about the Elizabeth I should be aware of?

        Mara is a very backwards step compared to the Elizabeth

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          The dual boiler just adds so much more temp stability to brewing. And that for me is massive

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          Considering the temperature stability is my primary concern with my Gaggia, that sounds like a huge attraction for the Elizabeth if the temperature stability is solid. Thank you.

          I know I’m perhaps the outlier here, but I don’t buy that a dual boiler is more temp stable than a single boiler for brewing. The bigger the boiler the higher the stability as incoming water has less impact on the temp, and a PID gives better control than a thermostat, but one vs two boilers has no impact. I think it’s more that quite a lot of the single boilers are aiming at the low cost end of the market.

          The real advantage on a dual boiler is they’re quicker for back to milk drinks. I think it really depends on the use case. If you’re only doing espressos or one/two milk drinks there isn’t much difference. If you’re doing lots of milk drinks a double boiler is a clear winner.

          Assuming you’re ok with a minor wait to hit steaming temp (usually no longer than it takes to clean the portafilter and weigh out the milk) then single boilers have some definite advantages:

          • cheaper to buy (or you’d expect better components)

          • cheaper to run, as for steaming you’re only heating the water by about 40°C, from brew temp to steam temp, not from ambient. As an example:

          • Single boiler flat white with my Silvia (all energy figure based on no loses and 20°C water tank, not accounting for the reheating the water from the shot as this should be the same, real world figures in both cases would be higher)

            • Heat 300ml brew boiler to 90°C [24.4 Wh]
            • Heating the 300ml from 90°C to 130°C for steaming [197.2 Wh]
            • Total for the Silvia = 221.6 wH (or 0.2 kWh). At 50p per kWh electricity prices this would cost 11p in electricity.

          • Same as above but with a Minima (clearly a great machine, chosen just to demonstrate the difference)

            • Heating the 800ml of water in the brew boiler from 20°C to 90°C [65.2 Wh]
            • Heating the 2.3L of water in the service boiler from 20°C to 126°C [1694.2 Wh]
            • Total for the minima = 1,759.4 Wh [1.8 kWh or 88p]

          • obviously if you make more drinks the difference decreases as the large boilers will stay warm, but if you have one flat white a day the Minima will be £281 per year more expensive to run in electricity alone.

          • Single boilers are usually easier to descale as well, so you don’t have to be as careful with water, a further saving.

          Obviously people have to decide the right compromise for them, but I think it’s very tempting to default to a dual boiler because why not, without thinking what the impact actually is.

            There’s also the single boiler Vs hx thing

            Most dual boilers you can have the steam boiler off.

            Your still moving temps about Vs staying stable. It’s just more convenient

            Esp when there’s £100 difference between a mara and liz

            If you look at the profitec go for instance it’s a right faff for a milk drink.

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            hornbyben

            That’s a really informative reply, thank you.

            You have basically iterated what I thought - but my knowledge isn’t great of the matter so I thought maybe I’m wrong.

            My primary drinks are for me, espresso, add water from the kettle, and add milk straight from the fridge. This is how the machine will be used probably 90% of the time. On the occasions when my sister comes over, she will need the use of a steam wand to froth her milk.

            I want a machine with a small physical footprint, with absolute solidly stable brewing temperature, temperature that I can control reliably, with the added ability to be able to steam milk (at the very bottom of the priority list but I do need it). I hadn’t considered pre-infusion but after reading about it now (because of the Elizabeth), I feel like it’s something that I would use - but I want it to be easy to use. Shot profiling I’m extremely unlikely to ever use.

            Based on that, can the Mara X / ECM Classika PID be contenders? They must be more expensive than the Elizabeth for a reason? What’s the reason?

                Mara is out of stock atm, it’s £40 less than the Elizabeth

                The ECM you’re paying for ‘better’ build, is it better I don’t know

                The mara is smarter than the ECM.

                I just don’t understand paying dual boiler money for a machine that’s not as good that’s all

                You could go all out and ignore the milk

                https://bellabarista.co.uk/collections/espresso-machines/products/ecm-puristika-1

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                  Cuprajake

                  I can’t completely ignore the milk unfortunately.

                  So if I’m understanding you correctly, or if the Elizabeth, Mara, ECM, you would say the Mara suits my needs the best?

                    Cuprajake

                    That reduced machine, on the sure they don’t indicate the size of it. Hope just bigger is it than a Mara? Is it a good machine?