In terms of speed, I am in no rush.

Water wise, I am in Aberdeen (soft water) and I have a filter connected to my water tap.

The only information I can find in regards to the Lelit Elizabeth (concerning pressure) is that it’s 15 bar, is this correct? If I decide to opt for this, is it wise to get the retailer to adjust this before sending it up (if it’s a complicated process)?

    How does the ECM Classika PID Espresso machine fare?

    DrForinor it should be straightforward but no harm asking them if you don’t want to do it yourself, but I’d recommend getting to know the machine and what the parts do as you’ll need to carry out some form of maintenance on any machine you get to ensure the longest lifespan:

    ECM are meant to be reliable machines but I think that one you mentioned a single boiler (and a pricey one at that) so would avoid. As mentioned DB is the one I’d recommend because you can switch the steam off when you’re not using it and will generally get the best heat stability for pulling shots.

      DrForinor I don’t believe either the Elizabeth or the Minima are set up to brew at 15 bar; I think it’s the pump’s maximum achievable pressure. If you are buying new, I’d ask the retailer to set the machine up at whatever pressure you want, but adjustment is an easy process for both:

      Minima:

      Elizabeth:

        Thank you both for your replies.

        I’m still teetering between the Elizabeth and the Mara, and trying to decide which works best for me. I do very much like the idea of the built in pre-infusion capability of the Elizabeth. And while I’m not mad on the looks of the Elizabeth, it would fit my kitchen space better.

        Are there any big negatives about the Elizabeth I should be aware of?

        Mara is a very backwards step compared to the Elizabeth

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          The dual boiler just adds so much more temp stability to brewing. And that for me is massive

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          Considering the temperature stability is my primary concern with my Gaggia, that sounds like a huge attraction for the Elizabeth if the temperature stability is solid. Thank you.

          I know I’m perhaps the outlier here, but I don’t buy that a dual boiler is more temp stable than a single boiler for brewing. The bigger the boiler the higher the stability as incoming water has less impact on the temp, and a PID gives better control than a thermostat, but one vs two boilers has no impact. I think it’s more that quite a lot of the single boilers are aiming at the low cost end of the market.

          The real advantage on a dual boiler is they’re quicker for back to milk drinks. I think it really depends on the use case. If you’re only doing espressos or one/two milk drinks there isn’t much difference. If you’re doing lots of milk drinks a double boiler is a clear winner.

          Assuming you’re ok with a minor wait to hit steaming temp (usually no longer than it takes to clean the portafilter and weigh out the milk) then single boilers have some definite advantages:

          • cheaper to buy (or you’d expect better components)

          • cheaper to run, as for steaming you’re only heating the water by about 40°C, from brew temp to steam temp, not from ambient. As an example:

          • Single boiler flat white with my Silvia (all energy figure based on no loses and 20°C water tank, not accounting for the reheating the water from the shot as this should be the same, real world figures in both cases would be higher)

            • Heat 300ml brew boiler to 90°C [24.4 Wh]
            • Heating the 300ml from 90°C to 130°C for steaming [197.2 Wh]
            • Total for the Silvia = 221.6 wH (or 0.2 kWh). At 50p per kWh electricity prices this would cost 11p in electricity.

          • Same as above but with a Minima (clearly a great machine, chosen just to demonstrate the difference)

            • Heating the 800ml of water in the brew boiler from 20°C to 90°C [65.2 Wh]
            • Heating the 2.3L of water in the service boiler from 20°C to 126°C [1694.2 Wh]
            • Total for the minima = 1,759.4 Wh [1.8 kWh or 88p]

          • obviously if you make more drinks the difference decreases as the large boilers will stay warm, but if you have one flat white a day the Minima will be £281 per year more expensive to run in electricity alone.

          • Single boilers are usually easier to descale as well, so you don’t have to be as careful with water, a further saving.

          Obviously people have to decide the right compromise for them, but I think it’s very tempting to default to a dual boiler because why not, without thinking what the impact actually is.

            There’s also the single boiler Vs hx thing

            Most dual boilers you can have the steam boiler off.

            Your still moving temps about Vs staying stable. It’s just more convenient

            Esp when there’s £100 difference between a mara and liz

            If you look at the profitec go for instance it’s a right faff for a milk drink.

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            hornbyben

            That’s a really informative reply, thank you.

            You have basically iterated what I thought - but my knowledge isn’t great of the matter so I thought maybe I’m wrong.

            My primary drinks are for me, espresso, add water from the kettle, and add milk straight from the fridge. This is how the machine will be used probably 90% of the time. On the occasions when my sister comes over, she will need the use of a steam wand to froth her milk.

            I want a machine with a small physical footprint, with absolute solidly stable brewing temperature, temperature that I can control reliably, with the added ability to be able to steam milk (at the very bottom of the priority list but I do need it). I hadn’t considered pre-infusion but after reading about it now (because of the Elizabeth), I feel like it’s something that I would use - but I want it to be easy to use. Shot profiling I’m extremely unlikely to ever use.

            Based on that, can the Mara X / ECM Classika PID be contenders? They must be more expensive than the Elizabeth for a reason? What’s the reason?

                Mara is out of stock atm, it’s £40 less than the Elizabeth

                The ECM you’re paying for ‘better’ build, is it better I don’t know

                The mara is smarter than the ECM.

                I just don’t understand paying dual boiler money for a machine that’s not as good that’s all

                You could go all out and ignore the milk

                https://bellabarista.co.uk/collections/espresso-machines/products/ecm-puristika-1

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                  Cuprajake

                  I can’t completely ignore the milk unfortunately.

                  So if I’m understanding you correctly, or if the Elizabeth, Mara, ECM, you would say the Mara suits my needs the best?

                    Cuprajake

                    That reduced machine, on the sure they don’t indicate the size of it. Hope just bigger is it than a Mara? Is it a good machine?

                      No idea but quickmill have been around along time

                      Take your pic any of those will do you

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                      DrForinor personally, based on your stated requirements I wouldn’t go for the MaraX, as this is a heat exchanger machine. It’s undoubtedly a good one, and a lot of people are happy with it, but they are less stable as the brew water temperature is set by it flowing through a coil in the steam boiler. Flow faster and the temp is lower, flow slower and the temp will be higher. To be fair, the MaraX is pretty sophisticated and controls this well, but the main advantage of a HX is allowing steaming and espresso brewing without delays, while saving cost versus a double boiler as you only need a single boiler.

                      I have no direct experience of the ECM, but from what I’ve read they are a very high quality manufacturer and this, plus brand value is why it is more expensive. The classika looks like a nice machine, and with a 750ml brew boiler should give very stable temperatures. Obviously from an energy point of view this will be inbetween my previous examples:

                      • 750ml from 20 to 90⁰C is 61 Wh
                      • 750ml from 90 to 130⁰C is 493 Wh
                      • Total 554 Wh (0.5 kWh) or approx 25p

                      It’s probably worth having a look on YouTube and seeing if you can find a video that shows how long it takes to go from brew to steam temp, to make sure you’re happy with the compromise. From a quick Google it looks like it has a 1200 W heating element, which if it’s 100% efficient should take 2 mins and 3 second to heat to steam temp (for comparison the same calculation for my machine is 1 minute 4 seconds due to the smaller boiler and similar power of 1100W). I have no doubt this will be annoying if you’re doing more than 3 milk drinks (as for 3 I’d pull the shots and th we do steam a single larger batch of milk), but is probably a reasonable compromise based on what you expect to use it for.

                      I hope that helps