DrForinor Another query, as a coffee ages - as a general rule - to get a better result from it what seems to work better with grind/ratio? Finer/coarser? Longer/shorter? Or is there no general rule, and go purely on taste?

I don’t tend to buy big bags, nor make lots of brews from one bag via the same method, but if we are talking about the same coffee, that is displaying the same fault in more than one successive cup, change the grind.

For a little context, if you are enjoying a coffee brewed to 18% extraction at 1:2 the concentration of the shot would be around 9%TDS. But a high 22% extraction at 1:3 would be around 7% TDS. So at these intervals in ratio there is no overlap in concentration and therefore, if the strength intensity is OK and you just need to adjust flavour balance, use grind.

    DrForinor Grinding finer/coarser affects extraction as does changing yield. Yield also changes dilution. Bear in mind that you can be grinding too fine and know what this tastes like, as described above. Don’t worry too much about shot time but pay attention if shots are very slow and quickly speed up, and other signs the puck is fracturing like obvious channeling. Also, look out for like excessive sediment in the cup and lots of clogged basket holes, there may be other things too like lots of ‘oil’ on the basket after the shot but not so sure about that….eventually you’ll know the grinder and know when you’re going to be pushing it. You may find that with some coffee you have to increase yield to get a good extraction which is probably what has happened in your example - presumably, you tried simply grinding coarser at the lower ratio with less than pleasant results?

        Rob1 I think I don’t give “grind coarser” enough credit - that’s probably my issue. My head sits (obviously wrongly) in the space where I’m thinking, finer grinds means more extraction means better tasting 🤦🏽‍♂️🤦🏽‍♂️

          MWJB I don’t think advice to adjust based on bitterness (in general) alone is very useful.

          This bitterness is with Union Roasted Bobolink, which I have experienced nice sweetness with before, nuttiness, chocolatey as well.

          • MWJB replied to this.

              DrForinor If you know the sweetness to be in the coffee, and there’s no sharpness/tartnness, then I’d be adjusting coarser.

                I’ve started (last couple of days) tapping towards the bottom of the portafilter to level the grounds. Before this I used to tap towards the top of the rim to level it. Since this change (I’ve changed nothing else) the coffee has really thrown me (2 coffees).

                Can that change really affect it that much?

                I do a downwards tap, then a couple of side taps with the heel of the hand to level.

                In what way has it ‘thrown’ you?

                With the taps at the top of the rim, I was around a certain grind setting (not really having to change much, perhaps half a notch either way) for most coffees. Now that I tap towards the bottom, I’m having to go at least 2 notches coarser.

                • MWJB replied to this.
                  • tap at top, grind setting 12, tastes good
                  • tap at bottom, grind setting 12, horrible
                  • tap at bottom, grind setting 14, better but still feels as though needs to go a touch coarser

                  Maybe I have started to be more/less aggressive with my taps?

                    DrForinor OK, see what coarser does, with a downward tap & side taps to level. If, at the end of the day, tap at top setting 12 gives you the best flavour, then stick with that, but I tend to grind at the coarsest setting that gives good flavour balance.

                      DrForinor Maybe I have started to be more/less aggressive with my taps?

                      The key is consistency what ever you do to fresh grinds. That includes tapping them especially if firmly or near that but sometimes there is no choice especially when tapping grinds down.

                      Something I have rather recently started to do. Side taps to get a heap levelish and a currently 2 taps down to get them to sink. First problem was doing that holding the portafilter handle. That’s swinging it so grinds may finish up out of level. I then use a 2 slope leveller. Net effect when they aren’t level is many flows starting with 2 out of the filter basket that merge to one at some point and wiggle around. I now tap holding the end of the portafilter and the funnel. That tends to leave the top of them flat. More flows start with 1 and wiggle around less. I am using 2 firm taps. I may switch to one and for the same ratio that will need a different time or a grinder change. I use a ~15kg tamp which some might think overcomes variations from this area but it doesn’t. :( I am painfully aware of this as I always use a 30sec fixed shot time and check weigh what comes out. ;) I like a challenge.

                      Overall though the change has improved things. Obviously a higher yield as more of the puck is getting extracted more evenly. This isn’t channelling as such, It’s fairly minor variations in water flow across and through the puck.

                          ajohn Yep, I hear you about the consistency, I just didn’t realise even variance in force of tapping could have such a huge impact 😐

                            DrForinor tap at bottom, grind setting 14, better but still feels as though needs to go a touch coarser

                            Tried the same coffee, at grind 14.5. 14g in, 35.9g out ( was aiming for 35g to give a 1 : 2.5 ratio). Five second preinfusion, 5 second wait, total time 21 seconds for this 35.9g. The shot looked quick, I thought it was going to taste horrible but it wasn’t too bad at all.

                            Only thing is, at grind 14 I made it into an americano with milk (how I normally drink my coffee) but this I just tasted as an espresso. I’m not an espresso drinker as I like to have coffee which lasts longer (I find an espresso is over entirely too quickly), but even as an espresso it was actually delicious. This has surprised me!! It’s left a lovely sweet lingering finish in my mouth (taste notes were apricot, mango, jammy). I cannot pick out the notes in espresso form, but it sure was sweet.

                            Does the fact that it was 21 seconds not really mean much then?

                            • MWJB replied to this.

                                Today i had a 65 seconds shot, as a result of confusing beans and grounded much finer than i supposed to. Suprisingly it tasted really good. They were the last beans in the bag so i couldnt repeat :)

                                DrForinor Does the fact that it was 21 seconds not really mean much then?
                                It doesn’t mean a thing. 😀

                                Bear in mind that historically, by all definitions espresso is a drink made in 15, or 20 seconds to 30 or 50 seconds. You are within the more common 20-30s range and tasty shots can even be achieved at 20s or less if long in ratio, or targeted for a good tasting, but low extraction.

                                Coffee takes time to brew, but brew time for percolation (espresso/drip) is such a poor indicator of extraction that it is almost useless. Grind setting & ratio (or grind setting at a given ratio) is much more informative.

                                Also bear in mind that for a given grind setting & ratio, different coffees extract similarly in very different times, this is normal.

                                Only be guided by time when results are really poor & the time is bizarrely outside 20-50s.

                                    MWJB I think part of my problem is probably giving more weight to the importance of time before other aspects of espresso making.

                                    Thanks for walking me through all of this, appreciated it!

                                      People can play with time but I think that video I posted makes a fair point. For any significant change in shot time the ratios need going through again. It’s something I play around with now and again. It might be something I’d try if a bean doesn’t seem to give what it should with a 30sec shot.

                                      I find straight espresso too strong to drink so use americano but my final decision on taste is when it has cooled significantly,

                                        ajohn I too have noticed that coffee tastes much nicer, at a temperature considerably cooler than what you might expect.

                                          This is a very interesting and informative thread.

                                          @MWJB , what are your thoughts on making an Americano, I’d normally do what the cafes do and make an 18g in / 40g out shot and top up with hot water.

                                          But would I be better grinding coarser and running the shot to get my desired volume without the need to add water post shot ?

                                          • MWJB replied to this.