I've not got my machine yet (Minima), but will be getting it as early in 2022 as I can. My plan is to use Lockhills for the time being. I can't get into RO at the moment for a while host of reasons, but might do down the line (years, not months). Is Lockhills still considered okay for espresso machines (I know it isn't perfect)? It is a lot easier for me to get than Ashbeck. I also can't seem to find anything on how to descale a machine. I know the best advice is to avoid needing to, but I'm going to have to for a while. Is there a recommended approach/ process to follow? Cheers

It's probably the best bottled water. You'll need to descale the service boiler though, a fairly simple task however you do it (removing fixture or just filling with the pump).

Thank you for the quick reply @"Rob1"#171 , that's great. I like the idea of filling the service boiler directly and so not having the descalling stuff running around the whole machine. I'll give it some more thought whilst I am getting prepared.

> @"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2194 I like the idea of filling the service boiler directly and so not having the descalling stuff running around the whole machine. I’ll give it some more thought whilst I am getting prepared. As long as you **don't engage the brew switch** until descaling is completely finished and the steam boiler refreshed with water a few times to remove all descaler, n**o descaler should enter the brew boiler…** It's easier than removing fittings…just takes a bit longer.

Thanks @"DavecUK"#p2204 Just so I am clear - do you mean you'd switch the brew and steam boilers on (leaving the brew switch well alone) put the descaler in the water tank, run the HW tap to then pull the descaler into the steam boiler, let it do it's thing, then flush with lots of clean water (through the HW tap) before brewing again.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2209 Yes, exactly

Got to admit I have only ever used Ashbeck, but still descale on a regular basis just as a matter of course. However, I would be interested to hear from other members here what they consider the best water (bottled) to be as far as keeping the scale issue to a minimum…Oh, and of course for taste.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2194 Should say really Lockhills will scale in the brew boiler too very slightly. Ideally, you could mix it with something to decrease alkalinity and hardness a bit more e.g. dow to 40mg/l alkalinity using something like a zero water jug, then it wouldn't scale the brew boiler. It's still the best IMO as I wouldn't use ashbeck. You'll avoid scale in the brew boiler as is with that one but it has low alkalinity (not great for taste). Adding potassium bicarb to ashbeck is an option too.

Thanks @"Rob1"#p2289 When you say > @"Rob1"#p2289 You’ll avoid scale in the brew boiler as is with that one but it has low alkalinity (not great for taste). Adding potassium bicarb to ashbeck is an option too. "As is with that one" - what do you mean? It sounds like you might be saying if I use Ashbeck and add potassium bicarb I'd avoid brew boiler scale and deal with the taste issue. But I am not sure that's what you mean.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2294 I mean 'as is' as in without adding anything to it but alkalinity is really low so you can get around it by adding potassium bicarb to avoid increasing sodium.

@"Rob1"#171, what dose of Potassium Bicarbonate would you add to a 5 litre bottle of Ashbeck ?

Bottled Water and Descalling Espresso Machine

Rob1

prezes

If you held the droppers perfectly upright and squeezed on drop at a time, you stop at the first colour change and your results will be consistent….

So with that said.

Service Boiler:

GH - 10 drops = 179 / 4 = >44.75 <49.23

KH - 7 drops = 125.3 / 4 = >31.32 <35.8

RO Water:

GH - 6 drops = 107.4 / 4 = >26.85 <31.33

KH - 5 drops = 89.5 / 4 = >22.37 <26.85

Testing your service boiler water 7 weeks after the last drain and drawing a cup of water a week is of little use unless you’ve managed to just about identify the point it might become a problem. Depending on the temp you run your service boiler at (assuming 125c) it’s about time to empty the boiler again. A small increase in alkalinity and you’ll start to get some scale.

prezes

Rob1 Thanks Rob.

I tend to refresh the boiler every 8 weeks so was about to do it. My service boiler is set to 129 Celsius

Would it it be best to test the water weekly and as soon as notice increase in KH assume it’s time to refill ?
Is the water fed acceptable to should I change something to achieve the ‘sweet spot’ between scaling and corrosion?

Rob1

prezes You’ll see an increase after you steam, so no not really. Technically there is no sweet spot as both corrosion and scaling change with temperature. Increasing alkalinity a little more to 40-50mg/l will be good for corrosion it likely won’t for scaling. Whether or not the corrosion will ever be something you suffer for is another matter. Plenty of people have been using ashbeck and water of a similar spec to your RO long term without reporting issues.

If I were you I’d be increasing alkalinity and descaling the service boiler as I wouldn’t want to brew coffee with water that low in alkalinity, but if it doesn’t bother you there’s no reason to not carry on as you are. I’d check the water after a week and you can just calculate from there how much additional hardness and alkalinity you will get over x weeks assuming you tend to make the same number and type of drinks and just flush according to that rather than try to test and catch it exactly at the point you need to empty to boiler.

coffeealex

MWJB I can see you are very well informed re water quality and certainly a lot more than I am. Could I ask your opinion on using osmio zero with their cartridge supplied fitted. I appreciate it introduces some calcium carbonate (I believe) but apparently such a small amount that the water is still considered soft. Would this be ok to use or is any level of calcium or magnesium a big no no to espresso machines.

MWJB

coffeealex Rob1 is your man for that question. I use water with calcium and magnesium in my Sage.

All water (very soft, soft, hard, very hard) has calcium carbonate in it, unless you take it out.

Companies like La Marzocco specify how much how hardness they recommend, it’s more than none.

MediumRoastSteam

coffeealex I appreciate it introduces some calcium carbonate (I believe) but apparently such a small amount that the water is still considered soft. Would this be ok to use or is any level of calcium or magnesium a big no no to espresso machines.

I think @LMSC , @DavecUK and @dfk41 , and there may be others, have been using the Osmio with the remineralisation cartridge for a while now, so you could also ask them. 👍

prezes

@Rob1 decided to test the water from Osmio as replaced the filters for the first time and used hard water filters. Came back quite low so unsure if should be adding something to water to increase alkalinity before feeding the boilers?

Osmio new filters /hard water filter/ with remineralisation cartridge

20ml sample 22 degrees
TDS reading - 14

GH - 2 drops 35.8 / 4 = 8.95
KH - 2 drops 35.8 / 4 = 8.95

LMSC

prezes Are you sure those numbers are correct? With new mineralisation cartridge, I would expect the alkalinity of about 35mg/l to 45 mg/l. The GH look correct, though it can even be about 15/16 mg/l. These are my average during the last 20 months of use.

Perhaps, your hard water filter is the reason! How does the hard water filter work with Osmio Zero? What are your pure RO readings? Thx

Rob1

prezes I’m guessing the remineralisation cartridge is spent as your water just reflects what you’d expect from straight RO water.

prezes

prezes @LMSC

These were my readings on original
Filters with about 4 months use. That’s why I’m
Surprised. I think I’ll repeat the test

LMSC

I haven’t had any issues so far. I hardly test the water from brew boiler. I do in the case of steam.

The last test on the brew boiler was in Nov 2021

GH 3 drops avg = 13.43 mg/l (one year range was 13 mg/l to 25 mg/) l
KH 8 drops to average 35.8 mg/l (1 year range was 36 mg/l - 55 mg/l)
TDS 69
Temp 18.4C

The last reading on the steam boiler was on 21 Nov 22 (full flesh every 6-8 weeks and a draw a small cup after steaming)

GH avg = 6.71 mg/l (16 months range was 6.7 mg/l - 20 mg/l)
KH average 29.09 mg/l l (16 months range was 29 mg/l - 50 mg/l)
TDS 67
Temp 19.7

The new mineralisation filter will skew the reading to the top of the range and then starts drifting lower.

prezes

Rob1 this would make sense but I replaced all the filters at the same time including the cartridge.

I will repeat the test tomorrow and see what I get back

prezes

Second attempt this morning and it took 4 drops for first change of colour…
GH - 4 drops 71.6 / 4 = 17.9
KH - 4 drops 71.6 / 4 = 17.9

Rob1

Could be the water needs to sit in the tank to be effectively remineralised. If you filter and dispense straight away maybe it doesn’t work?

prezes

Rob1 I was thinking this might be the case but I changed the filters last Sunday so been a while. The water dispensed wasn’t freshly filtered. Maybe the remineralisation filter needs time to be fully active?

LMSC

prezes No! The mineralisation will start working immediately. You have been using it for a week now; if you have never drawn any water after changing the filter, a litre of water in the internal tank was from the old filter.

The longer the water sits in the pipe (between tank and dispenser), the greater will be the concentration. The first draw in the morning will have more mineral content.

Could you tell us a bit more about the hard water filter? How is it connected to the mains and Osmio Zero?

The colour of those two glasses look similar to my eyes. One should be green and the other yellow, IIRC, if it is the API test kit.

prezes

LMSC I run 3.5 litres of water through new filters before using the water and would have at lease another 20 through before first test.

The hard water filter is another option you can my from osmio if you live in quite hard water area. The filters the unit came with weee standard but as replacement I purchased those https://www.osmiowater.co.uk/osmio-zero-ip-ii-portable-reverse-osmosis-replacement-filters-pack-hard-water.html .

Don’t tell me about colours ! As you meant to stop at the first sign of change of colour I am getting mental here trying to establish if this is light yellow or pale green !

LMSC

prezes Don’t tell me about colours ! As you meant to stop at the first sign of change of colour I am getting mental here trying to establish if this is light yellow or pale green

Did you read the instructions ? One of them, which I think is alkalinity, will take more drops than the other; and, that will turn from blue to yellow.

The other, I think GH, will turn from amber to green!

For an example, I require about 12 - 13 drops to get the desired colour on my KH test kit to get a value of about 30 mg/l using 40 ml sample.

These are for the API test kits.

prezes

LMSC of course I read them back and forth few times. On my kit KH is blue to yellow and GH orange to yellow.

The difficulty is that reading through the posts here you are not meant to wait till the colour is solid but only to the first sign of change which I found a nightmare to assess ! Especially from orange to yellow.

Sometimes I wish to be blessed with ignorance and thick wallet ! Don’t worry about it at all if machine breaks down I’ll get another one lol !

LMSC

prezes The difficulty is that reading through the posts here you are not meant to wait till the colour is solid but only to the first sign of change which I found a nightmare to assess ! Especially from orange to yellow.

KH > blue to yellow > easy as you can’t miss the change.

GH is difficult given your colours. You may either try 40 ml sample so that it requires more drops or keep the 20 ml sample, add a drop more to get a confirmation. You can then take an average of the two (one without an extra drop and the other with a drop more).

On these basis, while your GH looks ok to me, the KH looks too low. May be, you want to run your test of pure RO to compare it with what you have. To get a pure RO sample, you need a blank mineralisation cartridge, draw out all the water from the internal tank and refill the tank as a pure RO.

Rob1

prezes is it not the case that the GH and KH tends to be somewhat equal from the osmio remineralisation filter. I don’t want to say it just calcium and magnesium carbonate, but if it is you can just measure one or the other, so if KH is easy you could just go off that.

prezes

LMSC thanks for your help . I’ll give it another go

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