BigTTony You will get the best shot at the ratio that lets the coffee extract fully, as long as it is concentrated enough for your taste. That might be 1:2 for more soluble beans, it might be a longer ratio for less soluble beans.

You shouldn’t need to extend the shot time for longer ratios, as the larger amount of water pushed through the puck will be very effective at lifting extraction. Grinding too fine, to push up the extraction time, can have the opposite effect and reduce permeability of the puck & extraction. Or, not raise extraction significantly and just make shots unnecessarily silty.

So, if you are happy with the concentration at 22:60g, I’d use this as default. If shots have a flat/silty/muddled/muddy character, try shortening the ratio to restore clarity & intensity.

    Uncletits many thanks. I’m a regular customer, so I’m already aware 😊

    MWJB many thanks for the extra tips, I’ll give it a go. Out of interest, how do I know how soluble the beans are or how can I find out?

    Cuprajake let me know if you can find it or know what to search for on YT. I’d be willing to give it a go as it sound like an interesting alternative approach.

    Darker the roast more soluble generally

    Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

    That one looks like a 5s low flow but you get the jist

    Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

    I thought I’d share that I looked at the weight of the Puck post extraction (something I’ve never done before) and found it weighed 47g going off my current setup.

    So 22g dose, 44 seconds pull time from lifting the lever (including pre infusion), 60g out, 47g weight to the puck.

    Coffee tastes OK, nothing special. Slightly bitter aftertaste if anything.

    I’ve ordered some new scales and I’m going to order a shot measuring glass to improve my measuring ability.

    • MWJB replied to this.

      BigTTony My preferred drink would be a strong milk based coffee, so if I go to a chain coffee shop I tend to ask for large latte with extra shot.

      So that I understand: when you say you prefer a longer drink (e.g: 60g, over extracted) is that as a black coffee or do you then add milk to it and make a flat white/cappuccino? If so, stick to shorter ratios (e.g: a 38g or 40g shot from a 22g dose) as the coffee tends to be stronger/more intense in terms of flavour - for me at least.

        BigTTony The weight of the puck isn’t going to tell you much, I only mentioned it in order to explain that flow through the puck begins before drips are visible.

        If the coffee is sharp/tart/mouth puckering at your typical ratio, then it is under extracted, if grind adjustments don’t fix it, then the coffee is on the less soluble side & going longer on ratio can help.

        If the coffee produced is flat/muddy/lacking in clarity, maybe with an overly powdery mouthfeel, then you may have pushed too much water through the puck, so try going shorter on the ratio to clean things up. If it is both tart/sharp & powdery, then it is likely ground too fine and too short a ratio.

        Bitterness alone, without more context/detail doesn’t tell you much.

        Roast level can affect the solubility, but Colombians, Rwandans & Kenyans tend to be on the more soluble side, Brazilians, Costa Ricans & Guatemalans on the less soluble side. Always best to actually brew and adjust on your results, rather than 2nd guess what is going to happen.

          MediumRoastSteam I’m definitely milk based. I rarely drink black coffee and if I opt for no milk, I tend to drink espresso.

          MWJB this is the type of info I’ve been hoping to gain. It’s not that other comments haven’t been helpful, but more a case of it being difficult to articulate the issue, whilst at the same time helping people understand my own knowledge.

          On the latter point, the laziness extends to me limiting what I’ve decided to learn throughout my journey, so I wasn’t aware of what you’ve shared. I guess I’ll tighten the grind a little and see whether that improves the taste, but as you say, the beans may be more soluble, so I need to condor that at the same time. Lots to think about, but thanks for being patient whilst we exchange back and forth.

          wait your putting this in milk?

          Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

            2nd coffee of the day and a couple of tweaks. The pre infusion was actually set to 4 seconds with an 8 second pause, so I ran the standard process and just tightened the grind on this occasion, resulting in 22g in, 60g out for a total pull time of 66 seconds.

            The return was a much nicer taste in the cup, so that’s a good start. I feel like I can get more out of the beans with some extra tweaks, so I’ve increased pre infusion to 6 seconds and reduced the pause to 6 seconds. I noted that the bianca has a low flow setting in its PID system, so I might also look at that at some point instead of the paddle control.

            1:3 on a dark bean imo is over extraction,

            id highly suggest going back to basics and pull a traditional shot and see how you fare,

            Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

              Cuprajake OK, thanks. I can see what you’re saying. I should be aiming for 2:1.

              I will turn off pre infusion and see how it tastes to do a straight 22g in for 44g out in 44 seconds (+/- 3secs)

              Cuprajake I’ve removed pre infusion altogether. Is it worth trying low flow at this stage or not? If so, how long do you out low flow on for?

              Cuprajake If it doesn’t taste like it, then it’s not.

              Over-extraction is a very specific smoky, sickly, cloying & drying sensation, like very bitter hop without any good side. It’s very hard to finish an over-extracted cup.

              Just pulled a couple of shots. First without pre infusion or low flow. It was close to 2:1:

              22g in, 44g out over 39 seconds. I drank the espresso without milk and found it pleasant tbh, but slightly bitter aftertaste, although that might be because I’m used to milk based drinks instead of drinking straight espresso.

              2nd without pre infusion, but with 15 seconds low flow to see how if affected the extraction.

              22g in, 45g out over 38 secs!

              Much smoother extraction flow, nice mousetail and much sweeter taste and mouth feel… Does the similarity of pull time and output mean anything?

              This has been a real eye opener for me. I’ll tighten the grind ever so slightly to see if it improves the taste, but I feel it’s a real improvement since starting the conversation.