Alpesh ’ve seen several of these video’s before and informative but is it just me who winces at how he handles the machines?

I do as well, but it depends on your perspective and how you see the machines.

  • When I review a production machine, it’s usually going back to be sold, so I have to keep it looking like new…hence the use of grip mats etc.. and I am super careful when removing the case. so much so people used to ask to buy the machine I had reviewed, because they knew it was checked over.
  • Repairing machines…I am very casual about it and the use of substitute parts, because to me, it’s usually no biggie
  • Prototype machines won’t be sold and may have issues, I’m casual about that, they are essentially valueless to most people
  • Lelit will see a machine they are making a demo video on for repairs etc.. as essentially valueless, it will never be sold, just used to show repairs
  • I find it much harder to get excited about machines that are no prototypes now…with all their attendant issues.

I remember the 2nd alpha 2 minima with the coloured gauge, ACS wanted it back to break down for spares. It was a well working machine, I said that’s not right to do. I can sell it for you and give you the money…they were surprised anyone would want it. I can’t remember who bought it now, but it was very cheap.

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    fl13dl1c3

    Mine was manufactured on 07/21.

    I don’t think it’s a bad batch, but a rather permissive range of what they consider “functioning enough to ship out” at factory.

    I still bet my money on some poorly assembled components, not being sealed/secured correctly. Maybe even the steam wand or manometer assembly. Something mechanical that would explain a severe drop in pressure as soon as I begin steaming and the very slow time it takes to buildup afterward even when I’m forcing a steam boost.

    A cool test on your end would be maybe connecting to the gicar UART if you have the technical capacity to do so and get the temp sensors readings as well as the FW version you have.

        MisterH1337

        So I have been emailing Lelit back and forth, showing them on video how the steam pressure reacts through all the different scenarios they gave, and lastly mentioned to them that in steam mode PID level 2, the steam pressure only goes up to 1.25 bars. I asked if that was normal - and they responded that the manometer has some tolerance and my described situation is within their standard.

        So my take from this is that they either think the manometer may be off a bit, or if that’s not the case, that this steam pressure is acceptable.

        Not sure how I feel! I hope you have a resolution working directly with your supplier, and I will try to take that same route if yours works out.

            fl13dl1c3

            This message about the manometer tolerance is exactly what they told me!
            As long as I can’t compare my machine side by side to a normal machine, I can’t know if the steam performance is acceptable or not. I only know that if I steam with a 4-hole tip, I can still get a “swirl” going even if the pressure is 0.7bar during the steaming, so I can still make some latte art.

            If replacing the Gicar won’t help, I’ll have to live with it I guess.. :/

                MisterH1337 I only know that if I steam with a 4-hole tip, I can still get a “swirl” going even if the pressure is 0.7bar during the steaming, so I can still make some latte art.

                If you can use a 4 hole steam tip (why?) - the machine is designed for the 2 hole steam tip which works very well - and at 0.7bar you can make milk spin and draw late art, then trust me, your manometer is way off. 🤣

                    MediumRoastSteam definitely agree with this…even a single hole tip would possibly work ell, slower steaming, but no slower than an early Decent Espresso machine, or most other thermoblocks

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                      MisterH1337 - Even then. With a 4 hole steam tip, the pressure would need to be above 1.3bar or thereabouts. Something is not right. Unless, of course, you can’t steam properly (due to weak steam) and it’s taking ages to steam the milk. But that’s another story.

                      By the sounds of it… You rmanotmeter is off. Actually, there’s a test you can do:

                      • Turn machine off, let machine cool down completely, for a few hours;
                      • Turn machine on, and pay close attention to the manometer and listen out for when the vacuum breaker closes. You will hear some hissing, and a brief amount of water and steam will end up in the drip tray. That’s the point when water reached around 100C. (you might even be able to monitor it all if you connected to the Gicar box). From that time on, the manometer should start moving shortly after.
                      • Question is: Does it?
                      • Also, if you still have your machine connected, when the pressure gauge reads 0.7bar, what’s the actual temperature being recorded? Or, when your machine is idling, what’s the pressure reading and what’s the temperature recorded?

                      If you could video, that would be great. Although, I have a feeling we already discussed this. But I can’t remember if we have.

                          11 days later

                          MediumRoastSteam

                          Hi, forgot to mention I did the test.

                          When my gicar reads 100c, indeed i see some steam and hissing sound in the drip tray, but the manometer doesn’t begin to move up until 110c is shown, which is more than a minute after the hissing sound ended.

                          When the machine is stable and the gicar reads 112c (which is also the coffee mode setpoint) , the manometer is at 0.3-0.25bar

                          When the gicar reads 116c-117c I’m finally at 0.5bar. sometimes when I walk up to the machine its indeed showing 0.5 bar and that is the temperature (setpoint still at 112)

                              fl13dl1c3 - No, but I don’t know what’s wrong now. Anyway, Not according to saturated steam tables.

                              At 0.25bar the water temperature should be 106C.

                              But…. At 0.5bar is 112C. - which matches the last phrase. Yet, he says he also gets a 0.5bar when the Gicar tells you the temperature is 117C, which should have a pressure of 0.8bar.

                              https://www.tlv.com/global/UK/calculator/steam-table-pressure.html?advanced=on

                              So I don’t know. Maybe the machine has some sort of delay? May it is the Gicar box after all giving false readings?

                                MisterH1337 @fl13dl1c3

                                I have not gone back over the thread in detail, as I have been following it. There are a few things that might have effects. So lets get some things out of the way…the software is the software, it’s going to work the same regardless, if it’s the same version. There are small variances in certain things and how they read. power they produce etc..and unless one is clearly faulty…red herrings.

                                • Manometer
                                • Thermal Probes
                                • Heating elements

                                Apart from the Manometer, the other items have a very small variance….the Manometer although a larger variance, is still actually very accurate, because pretty much 90% of Manometers are made by Orman, hen rebranded as necessary.

                                There are lots of things that can be causing an apparent discrepancy, as different sensors are reading different things. All the following must be considered.

                                • The temperature read by a thermal probe in the HX, is different to the one in the boiler at certain times
                                • The steam temperature of the boiler can vary from the HX temperature
                                • The steam boiler probe will often read differently to the HX temp
                                • Steam pressure only has a loose relationship to HX temp a lot of the time
                                • Thermal mass and heat transfer between the HX system water and the main “steam” part of the boiler varies with temperature, but is not instant.
                                • An HX continually circulates
                                • If the main boiler autofills
                                • shots are done causing a perturbation in the system, which can last longer than you think
                                • When the machine has warmed up sufficiently to pull shots, it’s still not necessarily stable
                                • A system is truly stable if it’s been left for about 40 minutes after any activity
                                • The steam boosts will vary depending on which point of the temperature curve it sees when it responds, any deltas and how long it’s responded for. e.g. it doesn’t simplistically say, shot pulled = steam boost to 122 for 100s It’s more complex than that.

                                All of these things affect the readings…. and can be a reason why an HX temp of X, doesn’t always equal a manometer pressure of Y

                                That thing I had stuck onto the front of mine allowed me to monitor all the temps and what it was trying to do.

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                                    DavecUK When the machine has warmed up sufficiently to pull shots, it’s still not necessarily stable
                                    A system is truly stable if it’s been left for about 40 minutes after any activity

                                    What does “stable” mean in this context? Is it the ability to pull shots back to back or something else?

                                        MediumRoastSteam What does “stable” mean in this context? Is it the ability to pull shots back to back or something else?

                                        It means a state of dynamic equilibrium. Imagine 3 possible scenarios

                                        • A broom handle held downwards in the fingers (steadily) is in a state of static equilibrium.
                                        • Balance that stick upright on your finger, it’s now in a state of dynamic equilibrium (like an espresso machine).
                                        • Balance that stick upright on your finger on a gusty, windy day, and you attempt to keep it in a state of dynamic equilibrium, but with large and unpredictable variances (an espresso machine that isn’t fully warm or has pulled some shots, drawn water, steamed etc..)

                                        All in MaraX terms of what it’s trying to do..

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                                          a month later

                                          @fl13dl1c3

                                          Following the repair of my machine, I can suggest you do the following:

                                          1. Take out the water level probe, clean it real good, and seal it back with teflon, or maybe cut it like in this video?
                                          2. Open up the machine a little further, and check if your solid static relay is wired up like this:

                                          Lucky us Mauro uploads videos of everything.

                                          The more I think of it, the more it makes sense that it was indeed the water level probe.

                                          If it was faulty, it probably caused the boiler to never reach its optimal capacity (under-filled most probably) so a smaller amount of water would generate less vapor pressure at the same temp…