MediumRoastSteam fl13dl1c3 - hmm…. Feels a bit slow - but I have an Elizabeth. There was a thread on this forum where we shared some metrics… I’ll see if I find it. Or @Doram can just let us know how long it takes for him. 👌

Don’t know if you remember, but we had the exact same question from someone who steamed 200 grams of milk, and I made a video of steaming 200g from the fridge for comparison. Pulled that video and it’s about one minute to get from fridge temp to ~60C.

So 55 seconds for 175ml isn’t completely off the board, which makes sense as the machine’s pressure is just slightly low (~1.25 after steam boost instead of 1.5).

      Doram - totally agree with the above. And I remember the talks, but didn’t remember where the video was. 😊👍 -

        Doram

        My US version from 10/2020 behaves the same as Doram’s. It heats up to around 2.75bar on initial warm-up and steam boosts to around 1.5bar after the first shot is pulled.

          @Doram Situation 1 is when the machine is ready to brew a shot of coffee. For this we expect the pressure to be 0.5-0.8 bar (call it whatever you want)

          I actually saw my machine’s idle pressure all the way as low as 0.3 bar today. I assume this isn’t normal either?

            fl13dl1c3 I actually saw my machine’s idle pressure all the way as low as 0.3 bar today. I assume this isn’t normal either?

            If ‘normal’ is how my machine behaves then no, it’s not normal. You can see in my warmup and idling after a shot time-lapse videos that the idling pressure doesn’t go below 0.5 bar.

              As an update, I reached out to both my supplier and Lelit. The supplier said they would investigate and get back to me and Lelit provided some feedback.
              After some back and forth of their suggestions and me providing videos, their feedback is that my machine is operating normally. They said that if I want higher steam pressure I should pull the lever for a couple of seconds prior to my workflow as to “wake up” the machine. Their suggested workflow:
              Flush -> Grind -> Brew -> Prepare milk - Steam milk.
              They suggested a 2 minute time difference between flushing and brewing (said my 120v machine heats slower than the 240v counterparts)
              I saw a minimal increase in pressure to about 1.3 bars instead of 1.25 bar. But it’s insignificant because once I open the valve for steam it drops to 1 bar regardless.

              Not sure how much more I can push this issue or if I even should. The machine does work - I can steam my milk albeit maybe 10 seconds slower? Still it doesn’t feel great knowing that my machine can’t get to the same pressure as others.

                fl13dl1c3

                Hi, this is their usual response. That’s what they told me.

                The only thing different in your reply is that they mentioned the 120v being an issue, but in my country, we use 220v but mine still seems to behave the same as you. (Not to mentioned plenty of other users of the machine here with perfectly normal steam performance)

                I’d ask your retailer to swap the HX temp probe (and not the service boiler temp probe) I think it might be faking on my machine, hence the PID makes bad decisions in thermal regulation.

                As mentioned in my thread, my supplier should replace my Gicar box, but I don’t believe it will make any difference. I’ll as them to swap out the HX probe and water level sensor just to be sure, hope they’ll be cool with it.

                    MisterH1337 I’d ask your retailer to swap the HX temp probe (and not the service boiler temp probe) I think it might be faking on my machine, hence the PID makes bad decisions in thermal regulation.

                    From my understanding, there are two temperature sensors on the boiler, one on top and the other on the bottom?

                    Your retailer already replaced the sensor on top and that didn’t fix your issue, and now you will ask them to replace the bottom sensor as well as the gicar box?

                    I’m looking at Lelit Insider youtube videos and came across this one where he points to the NTC(?) probe @ 33 seconds which I assume is the other bottom sensor.

                    I’ll await your results after your next visit with your retailer and see if that fixes your issue (I wish I could bring mine in without shipping it - they’re 4+ hours away!). If it does fix your issue it looks like a fairly simple swap for the temp sensor - Lelit Insider has a separate video on replacing the top temperature sensor for steam and it was just a simple swap and I assume the same steps for the bottom sensor.

                    I also have to ask, when was your machine manufactured? Wonder if it’s a similar batch as mine was May 2021.

                        I’ve seen several of these video’s before and informative but is it just me who winces at how he handles the machines?

                          Alpesh ’ve seen several of these video’s before and informative but is it just me who winces at how he handles the machines?

                          I do as well, but it depends on your perspective and how you see the machines.

                          • When I review a production machine, it’s usually going back to be sold, so I have to keep it looking like new…hence the use of grip mats etc.. and I am super careful when removing the case. so much so people used to ask to buy the machine I had reviewed, because they knew it was checked over.
                          • Repairing machines…I am very casual about it and the use of substitute parts, because to me, it’s usually no biggie
                          • Prototype machines won’t be sold and may have issues, I’m casual about that, they are essentially valueless to most people
                          • Lelit will see a machine they are making a demo video on for repairs etc.. as essentially valueless, it will never be sold, just used to show repairs
                          • I find it much harder to get excited about machines that are no prototypes now…with all their attendant issues.

                          I remember the 2nd alpha 2 minima with the coloured gauge, ACS wanted it back to break down for spares. It was a well working machine, I said that’s not right to do. I can sell it for you and give you the money…they were surprised anyone would want it. I can’t remember who bought it now, but it was very cheap.

                          Contact me

                            fl13dl1c3

                            Mine was manufactured on 07/21.

                            I don’t think it’s a bad batch, but a rather permissive range of what they consider “functioning enough to ship out” at factory.

                            I still bet my money on some poorly assembled components, not being sealed/secured correctly. Maybe even the steam wand or manometer assembly. Something mechanical that would explain a severe drop in pressure as soon as I begin steaming and the very slow time it takes to buildup afterward even when I’m forcing a steam boost.

                            A cool test on your end would be maybe connecting to the gicar UART if you have the technical capacity to do so and get the temp sensors readings as well as the FW version you have.

                                MisterH1337

                                So I have been emailing Lelit back and forth, showing them on video how the steam pressure reacts through all the different scenarios they gave, and lastly mentioned to them that in steam mode PID level 2, the steam pressure only goes up to 1.25 bars. I asked if that was normal - and they responded that the manometer has some tolerance and my described situation is within their standard.

                                So my take from this is that they either think the manometer may be off a bit, or if that’s not the case, that this steam pressure is acceptable.

                                Not sure how I feel! I hope you have a resolution working directly with your supplier, and I will try to take that same route if yours works out.

                                    fl13dl1c3

                                    This message about the manometer tolerance is exactly what they told me!
                                    As long as I can’t compare my machine side by side to a normal machine, I can’t know if the steam performance is acceptable or not. I only know that if I steam with a 4-hole tip, I can still get a “swirl” going even if the pressure is 0.7bar during the steaming, so I can still make some latte art.

                                    If replacing the Gicar won’t help, I’ll have to live with it I guess.. :/

                                        MisterH1337 I only know that if I steam with a 4-hole tip, I can still get a “swirl” going even if the pressure is 0.7bar during the steaming, so I can still make some latte art.

                                        If you can use a 4 hole steam tip (why?) - the machine is designed for the 2 hole steam tip which works very well - and at 0.7bar you can make milk spin and draw late art, then trust me, your manometer is way off. 🤣

                                            MediumRoastSteam definitely agree with this…even a single hole tip would possibly work ell, slower steaming, but no slower than an early Decent Espresso machine, or most other thermoblocks

                                            Contact me

                                              MisterH1337 - Even then. With a 4 hole steam tip, the pressure would need to be above 1.3bar or thereabouts. Something is not right. Unless, of course, you can’t steam properly (due to weak steam) and it’s taking ages to steam the milk. But that’s another story.

                                              By the sounds of it… You rmanotmeter is off. Actually, there’s a test you can do:

                                              • Turn machine off, let machine cool down completely, for a few hours;
                                              • Turn machine on, and pay close attention to the manometer and listen out for when the vacuum breaker closes. You will hear some hissing, and a brief amount of water and steam will end up in the drip tray. That’s the point when water reached around 100C. (you might even be able to monitor it all if you connected to the Gicar box). From that time on, the manometer should start moving shortly after.
                                              • Question is: Does it?
                                              • Also, if you still have your machine connected, when the pressure gauge reads 0.7bar, what’s the actual temperature being recorded? Or, when your machine is idling, what’s the pressure reading and what’s the temperature recorded?

                                              If you could video, that would be great. Although, I have a feeling we already discussed this. But I can’t remember if we have.

                                                  11 days later

                                                  MediumRoastSteam

                                                  Hi, forgot to mention I did the test.

                                                  When my gicar reads 100c, indeed i see some steam and hissing sound in the drip tray, but the manometer doesn’t begin to move up until 110c is shown, which is more than a minute after the hissing sound ended.

                                                  When the machine is stable and the gicar reads 112c (which is also the coffee mode setpoint) , the manometer is at 0.3-0.25bar

                                                  When the gicar reads 116c-117c I’m finally at 0.5bar. sometimes when I walk up to the machine its indeed showing 0.5 bar and that is the temperature (setpoint still at 112)

                                                      fl13dl1c3 - No, but I don’t know what’s wrong now. Anyway, Not according to saturated steam tables.

                                                      At 0.25bar the water temperature should be 106C.

                                                      But…. At 0.5bar is 112C. - which matches the last phrase. Yet, he says he also gets a 0.5bar when the Gicar tells you the temperature is 117C, which should have a pressure of 0.8bar.

                                                      https://www.tlv.com/global/UK/calculator/steam-table-pressure.html?advanced=on

                                                      So I don’t know. Maybe the machine has some sort of delay? May it is the Gicar box after all giving false readings?