I’ll say it again at the risk of sounding like a broken record: temperature is a significant determinant of flavor. And it’s tough to get it right with a manual lever.

It will help a lot to get yourself a temperature strip or BBQ thermometer because the group head draws a lot of heat out of the water even when you pour water in that has just boiled from a kettle. I’m aware that the makers of manual espresso machines (flair, portapresso and others) tend to downplay how important temperature is but I’ve found that it’s actually very important.

You’ll be able to make great coffee with the Robot but making a great shot consistently will require a lot of practice. But it is achievable. Good luck with your journey, I’m sure that with persistence you will enjoy some superb espresso.

    Agree with tompoland. It will help you a lot if you get at least a temp strip for your group. You will get an idea of what the prevailing temp is after the cold group has absorbed a few C. A pre-heated group vs a cold group does make a difference to the cup.

    Once you get a shot, which you think you like, try and repeat the shot with the pre-heated group and the portafilter.

        LMSC tompoland

        Agree with you both that understanding temperature is very important, but the usual E61 gadgets like temp strips won’t work on the Robot due to its design. There’s nowhere you can place it where it’s visible and will give meaningful temp reading.

        A BBQ or digital thermometer could be more helpful for determining the water temp drop from kettle to inside the basket before you lock it in, but there’s also plenty of YouTube videos that explore that same subject (Cafelat has its own channel with several temp experiments, as do some of the reviews such as The Wired Gourmet).

        For maximising your results long term it’s definitely important and worth delving into in detail but I also think this risks overcomplicating a the issue at hand.

            Would love to share the latest progress for some advice please.

            I have just open a new bag of coffee - the Brazilian Blend from Blackcat. I think it is medium dark roast (although BC didn’t mention it in the package).

            At the last shot of my old bean (on which I have been trying to dial in above), I was finally able to pull a shot with 7/10 score with 1:2, 15g in and 30g out with 1.7.0 grind size. The brew time was 20s and pressure was 30lb. So not ideal but taste reasonably good. So i am using the similar recipe today on the Brazil blend but start with grinding a bit finer due to the short brew time and not enough pressure above. Different beans but use as reference for starting point.

            I pull 3 shots today. Btw the roast date was July 7th (7 day rest time). All three shots were 1:2, roughly 15g in and 30g out, 95c brew temp, 15s preinfusion. My plan was to identify the right grind size by achieving the ballpark pressure and brew time. And then I will fine tune maybe the dose or ratio, or other things. Here are the results:

            1/ G1.5.2/ brew time: 40s @55lbs/ too fine, 1:2.0 <4.5/10>

            2/ G1.6.2/ brew time: 31s @55lbs/ too fine/ 1:2.1 <4.6/10>

            3/ G1.7.2/ brew time: 17s @28lbs/ too coarse/ 1:2.1 <5.5/10>

            For the first 2 shots, I know I should stick with 40lb but seems I can hardly extract considerable flow without adding more pressure. I ended up using 55lbs. For the third shot, due to some workflow issue, I did preinfused it for 22s. Just a note.

            I think I had enough caffeine for today. :)

            Will try 1.7.0 tomorrow. Seems will be okay by interpolation. Assuming i can achieve closer to 27s and 45lbs tomorrow, what else I can refine for the taste further?

            Thanks again!

            edit: btw the beans smells so nice! Smells so much better than my last oily beans. Also, I noticed there is much less small bean fracture in the bag compared to my last bag without roast date.

              Knluk My plan was to identify the right grind size by achieving the ballpark pressure and brew time. And then I will fine tune maybe the dose or ratio, or other things. Here are the results:

              1/ G1.5.2/ brew time: 40s @55lbs/ too fine, 1:2.0 <4.5/10>

              2/ G1.6.2/ brew time: 31s @55lbs/ too fine/ 1:2.1 <4.6/10>

              3/ G1.7.2/ brew time: 17s @28lbs/ too coarse/ 1:2.1 <5.5/10>

              You have this a little backwards, pressure & time are fine tuning. Grind size & ratio are big drivers.

              What makes you say shot 3 was too coarse, how do you know there’s not better to come (or not) if you don’t try coarser? You can always back track finer, if things go south.

              When you get a noticeably improved shot, make few at those parameters to make sure things are consistent, before making more changes.

                  MWJB big thanks for your advice. I think i confused myself by watched quite a number of YouTube video on dialling in. I judged it was too coarse by the brew time and pressure. Probably I should go coarser instead. Sorry if I asked this before. So, if I open the glider to coarse, should I use same pressure (expect to have an even shorter brew time) or should I reduce pressure to avoid having a too short brew time? I think if I don’t think about it and pull, I will reduce pressure naturally when I feel there is less resistance. Will sure give it a try tomorrow! Many thanks.

                  • MWJB replied to this.

                      Knluk As you grind coarser, pressure reduces, that’s normal. You have the ability to tweak your pressure, most don’t.

                      Focus on the taste vs grind setting, too coarse a grind will produce weaker, sharp/tart coffee…in whatever time that takes.

                          MWJB it seems like my dial in journey is much longer than others :( I tried 3 shots today:

                          4/ G1.8.0/ brew time: 15s @15lbs/ 1:2.2 <2.5/10> Significant channelling, watery shot

                          5/ G1.8.3/ brew time: 8s @20lbs/ 1:2.1 <3.0/10> Channelling and watery

                          (I also tried a backward shot by going finner than the last shot yesterday)

                          6/ G1.7.0/ brew time: 17s @28lbs/ too coarse/ 1:2.1 <4.0/10> Some channeling

                          I can’t get any implication from the shots on which direction I wanna go for the next shots. Should I continue going coarser or finer? The only reason I can think about the confusing result is puck prep. But I think I am reasonably careful on puck prep what I did was WDF the ground in robot basket, from bottom to mid, to top grind try to stir a bit more to redistribute even the ground and avoid void in middle I then use the tamper to tamper the coffee by fingers I lower my body at the same level as the top of the basket so I can make adjustment during tamper if the handle of the tamper is not at 90 degree to the opening of the basket I didn’t use lots of force but only a firm downward pressure to tamper.

                          Again, appreciate any feedback or advice you may have thanks

                              Knluk I’m at a loss as to why yesterday’s shot at 1.7.2 was 5.5 & the best you had up to that point, but now 1.7.0 is too coarse & 4.0 ?

                              Don’t fret over perceived channelling.

                              Make some more at 1.7.2 see how they average.

                              I don’t WDT.

                                  Knluk

                                  MWJB asked you to repeat the best shot you got so far!

                                  When you get a noticeably improved shot, make few at those parameters to make sure things are consistent, before making more changes

                                  Your best shot so far is

                                  Knluk I was finally able to pull a shot with 7/10 score with 1:2, 15g in and 30g out with 1.7.0 grind size.

                                  Have you repeated this to ensure consistently, which will give you confidence in your coffee making, the lever and amongst other things? It is always a good practice to stick to one beans for a period of time until you have gained enough experience and gain confidence.

                                  We can understand you want to try other bags. It is fine if that’s you want to do. It is up to you! But, it gets harder as you swap the beans. As such the manual lever is hard to get used to and develop proficiency. You have worked very hard to some gain confidence. The result was the 7/10 shot. Please stick to that as advised by him.

                                  Most of us always use the previous best parameters (temp, grind settings, ratio, …) as the default starting point when we dial in a different bag! It is likely to require only a few adjustments. :-)

                                        MWJB I have the same feeling. Made me feel directionless. Make I should try something totally different on what I am trying …

                                          MWJB could you share your best practise for puck prep? I made little improvement from time to time. Almost eliminated all channelling previously. But now appears in many of the shots.

                                          • MWJB replied to this.

                                              LMSC I switched to new beans most because the last bag (no roast date) was bought as emergency while I am resting my new beans.

                                              I repeated the best shot on the Blackcat Brazil but very bad outcome. I will stick with this bean until it is used up. And then will move to the Chocolate Blend (I have 500g of that) so I will have more beans to dial in. I think I need much longer time than average people to learn the dial in. I talked to people in the Robot group, vast majority of them got very good shot in the first shot after purchasing the Robot 🙀 and they sound relatively careless on puck prep/ temp, etc. so I keep on thinking what I did wrong fundamentally but really not clue.

                                              With lots of failure feeling today, I went to just another local cafe. They’ve got La Marzocco machine and VA grinder. I had a double espresso, which was fruity and nice sourness. I presume they are not a particular specialty cafe as half of the shop sells nuts, organic dried fruit, …. But the nice coffee shows me how much improvement I can achieve if I keep trying. (Btw, will ask them the beans they used once I finish the Brazil, CB , and Dock Blend).

                                              thanks guys! Really appreciate the advice and discussion. I think I should just clear up some mind flog and find a new starting point to dial in the Brazil before it is used up.

                                                Knluk Firstly I don’t worry about what people call “channeling” if the shots taste good, I use a PF with spouts, or a bigger cup to catch the spritzes.

                                                I grind to the cup/catch cup of the grinder, shake the grinds then dump them into the PF basket via funnel, tap straight down a couple of times, then 2 or 3 sideways taps (heel of hand on side of PF) to level the bed, tamp once straight down, straight up & out, brew.

                                                How would you score the shot from the LM at the nut shop?

                                                    MWJB that sounds like a great suggestion to experience. The robot comes with a sing spout PF. Will use it and see how it goes by not seeing.

                                                    I will also try your puck prep approach. Sounds very simple but less is more I guess. I also tapped the sides of the PF (which is also the basket for Robot). But eg when I tap the right ride, I will see there is a small gap between the puck and the right side of the PF. I then tap the other side and ended up tapping 7-8 times. I didn’t actually count but I tap 360 degree until I see no gap and the puck is level.

                                                    After tapping the sides a couple of times, do you normally get a level surface? Or i shouldn’t aim for a very level surface as it will be taken care of by tampering?

                                                    also, will you try to break the clumps if you see it?

                                                    I will try new puck prep tomorrow and start everything from the last best shot I have at grind setting 1.7.0.

                                                    The cafe one I tried today was a 8.5/10. I be a happy man if I can continue pull that kind of short with one type of bean.

                                                        Knluk Clumps should be broken up when you shake the grinds in the grinder cup.

                                                        Try and get the grounds into the basket without big voids at the sides, after a couple of sideways taps, yes the puck is level enough to tamp.

                                                          Knluk I may be completely wrong, and I’m no great expert, but I’m thinking you may be overprepping… the more you “mix” with WDT and tapping, the more you will get fine particles moving to the bottom of the puck and a (not) nice sorting of progressively coarser particle as you get to the top. The sorting takes surprisingly little time/effort to happen, but it’s not a good thing.

                                                              CoyoteOldMan have fun in France!

                                                              This sounds probably the cause. I recently home made a WDT tool with wine cork and sewing needles. I stir in small circular motions from bottom (really touching and scratching the bottom of the PF) to top because I learnt the importance of even distribution.

                                                              Re the clumps, I kept thinking why I had quite a bit of clumps maybe because I tap the sides of the grinder and also tap the bottoms and the bottom corners of the collecting cup attaching to the grinder to the table pretty strongly to try to get the last big out from the burrs. Because I saw some particles between the burrs. I did it for 15-20 times depending on mood. I developed this habit gradually and maybe this slowly impact my puck condition.

                                                                Knluk I would stick with the bottomless basket as the spouted PF will reduce the temperature of your shots unless you preheat it. You can also get a better idea of what’s happening with a bottomless, especially with preinfusion (as the basket slowly starts dripping), even though you shouldn’t let some channeling make you think that the grind is incorrect!

                                                                I also think your shots seem messier because it’s a lighter roasted coffee and so is harder to extract as easily. With a very dark roast this may look nicer to the eye and extract easier because its more soluble, but a lighter coffee can cause more issues to fully extract. I don’t think your preparation will necessarily be getting worse. It takes time and patience so just try to stay consistent with everything you do and change one setting (grind) for the time being.

                                                                With the shot you grinded finest but there were channels, did you taste bitterness like with the last coffee beans?

                                                                    FadedFrontiers thanks. Good point on the temp.

                                                                    Yes. It is mainly the striking bitterness we cannot get rid of. And yes- from the colour, it is a pretty lighter roast compared to the oily bean I had before

                                                                    I think one of the tricky part confused me before was the relationship between grind size/ pressure/ time. Eg when I could get close to acceptable pressure (day 5-6 bar) and time (eg 30s), but the taste is bitter, should I use to coarser grind. But when i continued to move to the grinder size, either or both of the pressure and time will change to a funny level. But I got it now that I should ignore the pressure and time first. Still not sure what will happen next but the beautify of this forum is I can restart and report back the progress step by step for advice. I will restart from 1.7.0 grind today.