chlorox If niche were to offer ssp burr option, they should also bring into consideration the cost that is saved from not using the 151B burrs in calculating the eventual price. That would bring the duo into competitive contention for the customers wanting the ssp option as they are comparing it against such other grinders like the df83V.

Maybe. But the saving might not be as big as you think. A lot would depend on how much, if at all, their totalsales grew.

Think of it this way. In order to be confident in supplying, and then warranting, any 3rd party component, theyre going to want to do a pretty comprehensive sets of tests to ensure it’ll work, and not cause issues. And that costs. They have already incurred that costs for the current burrs, and every grinder sold is going to reflect a portion of that, and all other development costs.

Now assume they offer a new burr option. They can hardly charge existing ‘standard’ buyers for part of tge cost of that testing, so it’s all gong to reflect in the price of that extra burr set. How many of that model will they sell? Will any sales of that option be at the cost of not sellig a standard version they otherwise might have? If so, the proportion of the cost of testing existing burrs is going to be distributed across a smaller number of sales of the older burr versions.

And, of course, every extra SKU they offer comes with increased administratve costs, stockholding csts, etc.

It would need a good accountant, access to their manufacturing costings and a pretty good forecast both of sales of the new burr models, and any reduction in sales of the old ones, to be sure what adding that option will cost.

The result might, depending on those numbers, not result in much cost savings at all. It certainly isn’t as simple as deducting the cost of the previous burr sets fro the cost of the new ones, because other costs are involved.

It may also be that their estimates of any growth in sales from that strategy just don’t justify investing thetime in doing it. We can certainly assume that anything we see appear at retail as a product is likely to have been in development for a year or two, and that the things they’re spending their days doing right now will appear in a year or two …. if they carry on doing them. But they’re a pretty small team from what I can tell, and if crittical design or engineering staff divert to do testing on new burrs, they aren’t spending those hours/days on whatever prodducts they were developing.

It’s known as opportunity cost. Think of your own time - if you’re self-employed and decide to spend an hour washing your car, the opportunity cost is that you can’t spend that hour doing chargeable work for a client.

Friends that have never run ther own business often used to ask me things like “You’ve got all those printers and the skills, why do you pay an artist to produce <insert choice> artwork? You could do it yourself.”

And yes, I could, but if I’m charging £100/hour for my time, and paying the artist £25/hour for theirs, I can pay for 4 hours of their time by working one hour at what I’m good at. In my case, it’s probably worse even that that, because while I could do that artistic work, theprofesional artist will probably do it in a half or less the time it would take me. That’s opportunity cost, and at least a version of that applies to Niche - if engineers spend a week doing job B, testing other burrs, it’s a week they didn’t spend doing job A, and a week of delay in getting job A ready for market. That week of delay in Job A might bite further, if outside msnufactring contractors are waiting for an order, have a slot booked dand they miss the deadline because of working on Job B. It can all get very convoluted, which is to say, looking in from the outside, we have no idea how much cost would be saved by removing the original burr option. But probably not as much as you might first think.

    Stock mazzer burrs are about £100 SSP £300
    Having to make a brand new carrier smaller to fit SSP just to cater to a small % of people doesn’t make financial sense really

    Can’t imagine the costs on developing a brand new tool to make a new carrier.

    Then there having the optimal speed for the burrs

    My SSP MP burrs are taking 45s to grind 18g of beans. This is double the mazzer equivalent

    So far not overly impressed, they have had 2kg through them but still learning the burrs and dialing in

    Imo those who generally want things like ssp don’t buy the duo they spend more

    Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

      CoffeePhilE

      Look, all that is part and parcel of the businessman life and the successful ones find a way to make it happen. It is for them alone to solve and for them to alone reap the benefits if they do. If they want to cater to that market, they will find a way and do it at a price that makes sense to that market. If they don’t want to or don’t feel the need to, they won’t.

      But others have already succesafully done so at good prices notwithstanding any obstacles and yet others will do so in the future in ijcreasingly better and better ways, and that willl be for the benefit of us as the customers.

      Cuprajake
      Is it really a small % or is it a far larger % of the home single dosing market? I suspect its far larger than how u see it is. But whatever the case, if niche wants to cede that market to others by default, no worries I’m sure their competitors are very happy they are so generous.

      People who want the ssp type of clarity don’t buy duo because niche doesn’t offer that option but stocks only the 151B. Sure, a small fraction will be prepared to buy the duo despite it having burrs they don’t want and then buy a separate burr to install i5 themselves, but most won’t bother or won’t want to pay for burrs they aren’t interested in.

      On the speed issue, i really dont think the speed needs to be adjusted for a different espresso burr set when the same speed is apparently fine for the stock filter burrs that have to be more different from rhe 151B than ssp burrs could difer from the stock mazzer burrs. What more when u consider how much torque the niche geared system is supposed to impart to thar grinder ..

      Can only tell you what I’m experiencing actually having SSP in the duo 🤷

      Fwiw the brews ATM are worse than the stock mazzer 151b

      They’re not brighter or more clarity they are over extracted, on turbo shots too.

      Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

        Cuprajake
        That’s your experience with your beans and with those burrs that u have in your duo. Entirely valid for u with your beans, equipment, taste buds and preferences but others may have entirely different experiences altogether…

          Ok

          Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

          If Niche offered SSP or similar, I still would not buy them. I actually want something that works as intended out of the box. I am not remotely interested in spending large amounts of money chasing a small return on taste. The sort of people who buy these mega expensive single dosers with all the burr options they want are never going to buy a Niche anyway. I suspect many of those advocating that Niche should do this and Niche should do that to appease a few folks are salaried and do no have experience of business models.

            dfk41
            During the roaring twenties, Henry Ford thought that the model t in black only and withoiut any options was perfect too and thar he didn’t need to bother with what the market wanted because he knew best and his cost and manufacturing model was the best…all his yes men in the company created an echo chamber and told him he was right. . his company almost went out of business as a result and general motors reaped the benefit by giving the market what it wanted in the form of many subbrands, models and coloirs…..

            Anyway enough said by me on this topic…

            I’ve have a DF64V with SSP MP burrs and the difference compared to the Niche Duo (espresso only) is minimal for the coffee I’ve tested and my tastebuds. This said I’ve only done four blind taste tests on two beans I’ve really liked. When testing I’m really looking for differences but they are so close.

            I’ll keep testing when I get the chance but I don’t feel that compelled to do so based on my findings so far.

            If I had to sell one it would be the DF as the workflow on the Niche is superior.

            this morning i back to back the same bean with both burr sets, i prefered the duo stock lol - im just not elite

            Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

              chlorox That’s your experience with your beans and with those burrs that u have in your duo. Entirely valid for u with your beans, equipment, taste buds and preferences but others may have entirely different experiences altogether…

              I tested lots of different burrs in the Duos for almost 2 years, with many different coffees. Burr variants from Mazzer and SSP. I don’t doubt what Jake says because some burrs gave that on my testing. Burr selection is something that needs a lot of knowledge and experience.

              The grinder has masses of Torque and the motors are custom wound to run at a certain speed to work with a specific gearbox, giving the desired burr rotational speed. That custom motor wind could have been changed to give faster or slower speeds, but that was the speed chosen by me. not constrained by torque availability. The burrs run at that speed, because it’s the best speed and the correct speed. The speed reduces burr over packing (reducing fines caused by coffee grinding against itself) whilst maintaining a sensible grind speed, that’s not too lengthy. This was the result of a years testing at various speeds, with different burrs!

              I was shocked Hoffman couldn’t taste the difference in espresso between the Zero and the Duo, because I certainly could.

              The reason a specific filter burr exists, is because “elephant in the room”, a burr that does both espresso and filter well, doesn’t exist and technically can’t. I did try some. The Mazzer filter burr I chose is truly an excellent filter burr.

              Now I don’t know what your experience is with grinder and burr design, or how much proper testing you have done…but mine is extensive. The Duo was tested against many different grinders. EG1, Kafatec Flat Max 2, Weber Key, Eureka grinders, DF64, DF64V, Lagom P100, to name but a few. All to assess performance and taste vs the rest.

              (not all grinders tested shown)

              P.S. Hoffman said it was slow, but I have a Kafatek Flat Max with 98 mm burrs, running at it’s highest speed 400 rpm, grind times are about the same as the Duo! In fact slow the Kafatek down and the grind times get ridiculous with 400 rpm being about the right speed for a 98mm diameter burr with those characteristics (Shuriken burr)

                Even extensive decibel testing in a kitchen environment, with decibel meter placed at average ear position, the grinder under cupboards, pulled forward etc..

                Chriss29 I’m getting the impression for me that some beans are better in different grinders, I think @MediumRoastSteam alluded to this when comparing the zero to the duo with a particular bean where the zero was better.

                Yes. I think that was referenced in one of posts above. For me, the Duo and the Zero are very similar, for the coffee I usually drink, which I call it medium/light. The Duo has a slight edge, there’s more clarify. The Zero muddles things, and has more texture. But it’s all so subtle, to me, that if they were not side by side, I’d struggle to tell there was any difference at all. To the point that when I only had the Zero, and at times went to Dave’s to try some coffee from the Duo (I brought my own coffee) there was nothing screaming at me which made a pronounced difference. To me, it tasted the same. I couldn’t tell the difference like that.

                There was incidence, with a particular coffee (I think it was from Django) that the Duo produced something significantly worse than the Zero, maybe due to what I said above. The Zero just muddled it all, and that tasted better to me. But that was that only instance.

                i have said for a while that grinders are more closely related than that is made out to be, think youtubers,

                and as ive said imo you can do more with different baskets, profiles and extraction methods,

                im going to give the ssp a week, have a play and make my mind up if not someone will get a bargain haha

                Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                DavecUK
                Dave, I did say that Nuff said on this topic but since you referenced me in your post above, I think that deserves a reply.

                Your knowledge and experience of coffee equipment Is indeed extensive and nobody would dispute that at all, least of all me. However while I respect your knowledge, that does not mean that we as lay people without technical knowledge should unquestioningly surrender our own judgment or tastes to experts concerning the coffee we like or the gear we want.

                In all my posts in this thread, I have not held myself out as having any technical knowledge or expertise. I try to make my points baded on logic and reason resting on commonly held presuppositions. It is no different on this thread discussion - to boil down to the shortest compass of what I was arguing for, it is that niche is missing out on a significsnt business opportunity to cater to those who want a clarity focused burr option by only being prepared to offer as the espresso burrs the 151B.

                That being the case, what then is the purpose of you flexing at me with your great technical expertise on grinders ?

                My point to jake about speed of the niche was two fold - (1) the torque is said to be so great that it should easily handle ssp burrs - this was agreed by everybody including yourself (2) that I don’t understand why was he saying that putting in ssp burrs would mess up the speed of the grinder since the grinder is already supposed to be used for either the stock filter burrs or the stock espresso burrs. Obviously the speed of the grinder won’t change regardless of which stock burr is chosen to be used. As u implicitly agreed and did not dispute in your post above, the stock filter burr is very different from the stock espresso burr as it is not possible for any one burr set to be optimal for both espresso and filter. Thus the optimal speed for the stock filter burrs would be very different from the optimal speed for the stock espresso burrs and therefore the grinder is already sub optimal for at least one of the stock burr sets, or for both. If that is the case, what is the difference with using ssp burrs in the duo? It cannot be more different from the 151B burrs as compared to the stock filter burrs. I don’t think this question by me has been answered by jake nor by you…

                  As Niche Duo owner myself. I absolutely love this grinder. Not just the coffee , but the looks and workflow.