https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpoJ-6x7fFQ

I’ve just watched it and was completely distracted by the view counter increasing by the hundred’s every few minutes. Incredible that he carries this much “clout” and I imagine the responsibility must be both a blessing and a curse at times, after all one man’s meat can be another man’s poison. Generally a thorough review but never having owned a duo I wouldn’t like to comment on his findings .

Was skeptical of him saying they tasted the same until he backed it up with the particle test results. Guess those mazzer flats are holding it back.

Always enjoy watching his videos. A few observations below would be appropriate. - I haven’t seen the need to RDT since day 1. Some medium dark and dark coffee do create traces of static. The filter burrs spray the chaffs as static most of the time. It’s a good riddance in filter as I don’t like them at all. 😁 IMO, we don’t need to RDT. - I do not have a zero to compare the espresso. It’s a huge step up from JX Pro. However, compared to the clarity, and flavour on filter, I have to say these two are less pronounced as the espresso gives a balanced cup. I do agree that it’s not convenient, at least for me, to swap the burrs 2-3 times a day to switch between filter and espresso. It is very easy and takes less than a minute to swap, but I am lazy and can’t be asked! 😊 Good to hear he liked the solid build guilty, work flow, motor, no RPM and the price point. It is, however, unfair comparing a very expensive grinder with the Duo. I wish he had said it is a very good value as a combo. I still think it is - espresso or both. 😊 It is great he did not say one will have to zero for filter every time you swap. 😁

It must just be me that regularly changes the burrs, I have a filter first thing and then swap out for espresso the rest of the day.

The stock burrs are traditional, everyone knows that, that's why most manufacturers supply SSP.

Another thing is - espresso burrs set isn’t meant for filter as a daily driver. It is plain and simple.

I think he had some valid complaints-- namely that in today's market with what has come out since the zero, and presumably what the duo will have to compete against over the next few years, is that they could have paired it with a more competitive single burr option.

> @"washed"#p62457 they could have paired it with a more competitive single burr option. Would you like to name such a beast that also keeps to the same price point and is readily available in large numbers please

I don't think he is destroying a product with his review, he's just saying it's not the game changer that the Zero was. Yes there's a lot more competition in the market these days but choice isn't a bad thing and will drive manufacturers to improve their products. I also like the honesty that he couldn't taste the difference between the Zero and Duo, a lot of influencers give the impression that they're super tasters but I'm not always convinced that their palate would stand up to some proper blind tasting.

@"dfk41"#p62458 The company behind the DF grinders offer their own DLC-coated burrs now to replace the often-meh'd italmills. For example.

Hoffman on the Duo

Tal

Cuprajake interesting!

dfk41

If Niche offered SSP or similar, I still would not buy them. I actually want something that works as intended out of the box. I am not remotely interested in spending large amounts of money chasing a small return on taste. The sort of people who buy these mega expensive single dosers with all the burr options they want are never going to buy a Niche anyway. I suspect many of those advocating that Niche should do this and Niche should do that to appease a few folks are salaried and do no have experience of business models.

chlorox

dfk41
During the roaring twenties, Henry Ford thought that the model t in black only and withoiut any options was perfect too and thar he didn’t need to bother with what the market wanted because he knew best and his cost and manufacturing model was the best…all his yes men in the company created an echo chamber and told him he was right. . his company almost went out of business as a result and general motors reaped the benefit by giving the market what it wanted in the form of many subbrands, models and coloirs…..

Anyway enough said by me on this topic…

Chriss29

I’ve have a DF64V with SSP MP burrs and the difference compared to the Niche Duo (espresso only) is minimal for the coffee I’ve tested and my tastebuds. This said I’ve only done four blind taste tests on two beans I’ve really liked. When testing I’m really looking for differences but they are so close.

I’ll keep testing when I get the chance but I don’t feel that compelled to do so based on my findings so far.

If I had to sell one it would be the DF as the workflow on the Niche is superior.

Cuprajake

this morning i back to back the same bean with both burr sets, i prefered the duo stock lol - im just not elite

Chriss29

Cuprajake I’m getting the impression for me that some beans are better in different grinders, I think @MediumRoastSteam alluded to this when comparing the zero to the duo with a particular bean where the zero was better.

MediumRoastSteam

Chriss29 I’m getting the impression for me that some beans are better in different grinders, I think @MediumRoastSteam alluded to this when comparing the zero to the duo with a particular bean where the zero was better.

Yes. I think that was referenced in one of posts above. For me, the Duo and the Zero are very similar, for the coffee I usually drink, which I call it medium/light. The Duo has a slight edge, there’s more clarify. The Zero muddles things, and has more texture. But it’s all so subtle, to me, that if they were not side by side, I’d struggle to tell there was any difference at all. To the point that when I only had the Zero, and at times went to Dave’s to try some coffee from the Duo (I brought my own coffee) there was nothing screaming at me which made a pronounced difference. To me, it tasted the same. I couldn’t tell the difference like that.

There was incidence, with a particular coffee (I think it was from Django) that the Duo produced something significantly worse than the Zero, maybe due to what I said above. The Zero just muddled it all, and that tasted better to me. But that was that only instance.

DavecUK

chlorox That’s your experience with your beans and with those burrs that u have in your duo. Entirely valid for u with your beans, equipment, taste buds and preferences but others may have entirely different experiences altogether…

I tested lots of different burrs in the Duos for almost 2 years, with many different coffees. Burr variants from Mazzer and SSP. I don’t doubt what Jake says because some burrs gave that on my testing. Burr selection is something that needs a lot of knowledge and experience.

The grinder has masses of Torque and the motors are custom wound to run at a certain speed to work with a specific gearbox, giving the desired burr rotational speed. That custom motor wind could have been changed to give faster or slower speeds, but that was the speed chosen by me. not constrained by torque availability. The burrs run at that speed, because it’s the best speed and the correct speed. The speed reduces burr over packing (reducing fines caused by coffee grinding against itself) whilst maintaining a sensible grind speed, that’s not too lengthy. This was the result of a years testing at various speeds, with different burrs!

I was shocked Hoffman couldn’t taste the difference in espresso between the Zero and the Duo, because I certainly could.

The reason a specific filter burr exists, is because “elephant in the room”, a burr that does both espresso and filter well, doesn’t exist and technically can’t. I did try some. The Mazzer filter burr I chose is truly an excellent filter burr.

Now I don’t know what your experience is with grinder and burr design, or how much proper testing you have done…but mine is extensive. The Duo was tested against many different grinders. EG1, Kafatec Flat Max 2, Weber Key, Eureka grinders, DF64, DF64V, Lagom P100, to name but a few. All to assess performance and taste vs the rest.

(not all grinders tested shown)

P.S. Hoffman said it was slow, but I have a Kafatek Flat Max with 98 mm burrs, running at it’s highest speed 400 rpm, grind times are about the same as the Duo! In fact slow the Kafatek down and the grind times get ridiculous with 400 rpm being about the right speed for a 98mm diameter burr with those characteristics (Shuriken burr)

chlorox

DavecUK
Dave, I did say that Nuff said on this topic but since you referenced me in your post above, I think that deserves a reply.

Your knowledge and experience of coffee equipment Is indeed extensive and nobody would dispute that at all, least of all me. However while I respect your knowledge, that does not mean that we as lay people without technical knowledge should unquestioningly surrender our own judgment or tastes to experts concerning the coffee we like or the gear we want.

In all my posts in this thread, I have not held myself out as having any technical knowledge or expertise. I try to make my points baded on logic and reason resting on commonly held presuppositions. It is no different on this thread discussion - to boil down to the shortest compass of what I was arguing for, it is that niche is missing out on a significsnt business opportunity to cater to those who want a clarity focused burr option by only being prepared to offer as the espresso burrs the 151B.

That being the case, what then is the purpose of you flexing at me with your great technical expertise on grinders ?

My point to jake about speed of the niche was two fold - (1) the torque is said to be so great that it should easily handle ssp burrs - this was agreed by everybody including yourself (2) that I don’t understand why was he saying that putting in ssp burrs would mess up the speed of the grinder since the grinder is already supposed to be used for either the stock filter burrs or the stock espresso burrs. Obviously the speed of the grinder won’t change regardless of which stock burr is chosen to be used. As u implicitly agreed and did not dispute in your post above, the stock filter burr is very different from the stock espresso burr as it is not possible for any one burr set to be optimal for both espresso and filter. Thus the optimal speed for the stock filter burrs would be very different from the optimal speed for the stock espresso burrs and therefore the grinder is already sub optimal for at least one of the stock burr sets, or for both. If that is the case, what is the difference with using ssp burrs in the duo? It cannot be more different from the 151B burrs as compared to the stock filter burrs. I don’t think this question by me has been answered by jake nor by you…

tompoland

DavecUK The reason a specific filter burr exists, is because “elephant in the room”, a burr that does both espresso and filter well, doesn’t exist and technically can’t.

That’s been my suspicion for some time. There always seems to be a compromsie with an omni burr. Still, some come close e.g. the Hypernova Ultra S from which I can derive a pretty darned tasty espresso and filter - ditto for the C60.

But agreed, it’s really preferable to have a dedicated grinder/burr for filter and another for espresso.

Given my Significant Other’s tolerance of my obsession, I am fortunate to have grinders/burrs dedicated to

light espresso (SSP HU)
medium/light espresso (Varia Hypernova Ultra S)
medium espresso with milk (DF DLC)
filter for clarity (Ode Gen 2/ SSP MP)
filter for body (Mazzer 151F)

I appreciate that would be grounds (pun intended) for divorce in most households but it illustrates that in an idyllic world (IMHO) we’d all have a grinder that was 100% fit for purpose, and we wouldn’t have to compromise.

Other than for travel because I’ve found it quite challenging to fit 5 grinders into a carry on when flying (I don’t trust “them” with my check-in bag).

DavecUK

Even extensive decibel testing in a kitchen environment, with decibel meter placed at average ear position, the grinder under cupboards, pulled forward etc..

Cuprajake

i have said for a while that grinders are more closely related than that is made out to be, think youtubers,

and as ive said imo you can do more with different baskets, profiles and extraction methods,

im going to give the ssp a week, have a play and make my mind up if not someone will get a bargain haha

Loonster

chlorox

The duo has an RPM of around ⅓ of normal grinders. This allows it to have a higher torque and possibly other benefits (reduction of coffee grinding against itself).

The reason the Duo can still have an acceptable grind time is because it uses commercial burrs with aggressive teeth designed to be used with a high torque 3phase grinder. The duo still grinds ⅓ slower as the commercial grinder, but when the original grind time is 6s, 18 isn’t that bad. Going from a 17s grind time to a 50s grind time would be more painful.

Edit: I should also mention that the 151b burrs should not be used in most consumer grinders. They won’t have the torque to properly drive them.

drdre89

As Niche Duo owner myself. I absolutely love this grinder. Not just the coffee , but the looks and workflow.

chlorox

drdre89
It does look and sound like a good grinder from the perspective of its mechanicals. Which is why I thought it would expand its market even more if it offered alternative burr options. Even mazzer itself is now offering high clarity focused burrs for the new philos and a more traditional set of burrs as the alternative burr option, so this is a good idea for niche to also follow its own burr supplier in doing …

Cuprajake

i didnt say the speed had changed, i said they took longer to grind.

Cuprajake My SSP MP burrs are taking 45s to grind 18g of beans. This is double the mazzer equivalent

as is the stock mazzer burs take about 20s while the mazzer filter take about 10s.

there is more than enough torque but when you look at the cut of the burr its totally different to a ‘stock’ burr from many manufacturers, no pre breakers.

for me, im not very filter driven, never really have been, i prefer the kick of espresso lol

chlorox

Cuprajake
Dont worry - I did not understand u as saying that the grinder has itself changed its speed of rpm. I took u to mean thar the speed in terms of the set rpm of the grinder had been optimised for the 151b burrs and thus it would take longer than it would be otherwise to grind if the rpm had been optimised for the new set of burrs.

Cuprajake

popular size though 64mm

Loonster

@tompoland do you have a chart of grind times with the various burrs you tested?

tompoland

Loonster no sorry. it would depend which grinder they are in too. For example the DF DLC 83mm burrs will grinder a lot faster in the DF83V at say 1200RPM verus in the Duo.

If there is one in particular you had an interest in, or a comparision of two, let me know and I’ll see if I have them installed and if so then I can run a comparision for you.

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