It strikes me that there’s plenty of chaps here that are confident talking about equipment, but tend to shy away from discussing the flavour of coffee and their ability to taste it. Any thoughts? 🤔

@"JimmyP"#p73950 Well, people here tend to make their own coffee beverage, rather than buy it (like you might a pack of cheese & onion crisps), so you also need to consider (as well as a higher interest in gear/technique, over Oz Clarke style taste reviews) that some people's ability to taste what they make is fine and that: a) There may be a malfunction in the making of the drink getting in the way of its presentation. b) They may prefer it with additions like milk, sugar. c) The notes supplied by the roaster may be tenuous/overly specific (I've never eaten a lingonberry, nor tasted an orange blossom). Some people seem to see specific notes as a little pretentious (not just in coffee, I've seen it with respect to beer & whisky too). For me personally, how nice the coffee is overall trumps whether supplied notes are tangible, but it's a bonus when it all comes together (at least one or two of the notes mentioned are detectable). Non coffee nerds that I make coffee for, talk of a lack of expected 'bitterness, wine like, fruit, nice', etc.

First, one needs a sensitive palate to pick and differentiate the fine nuisances of flavours and aromas. A lack of it can be a challenge. Second , how accurate are the descriptions on the bag? Third, merely writing papaya, peach, nectarine, pears, jasmine does not help. We appreciate those roasters who write a few lines of their experiences of what their coffee taste like when they cupped them? This is very important than a mere customary noting of notes. Except a few, this is largely absent even amongst those who sell coffee bags in the north of £80. I don’t expect to find more than one or two (if at all) on a bag. Fourth, I try to keep the notes simple. I have a sensitive palate. I brew and see what aromas and flavour I can find - grinding to drinking. The coffee flavours change as it cools. A gentle to moderate smooth fruity acidity for me is characteristics of stone fruits, pears or grapes. Lemon, tea, winey and florals can have a slight enjoyable tart dry edge at the finish. Berries typically have an elevated acidity, which I love. They can be easily mistaken for a sour cup. I avoid coffee which have caramel, cocoa and chocolate notes as I drink black only. Like Grapefruit, they (especially cocoa and dark chocolate) can be difficult to delineate if they are notes or a brew malfunction. These also spoil my nice black coffee. 😊 Fifth, notes on espressos are a different class altogether as scope for a brew malfunction is greater than on a filter. For me, it is very difficult to pick the notes on the thick concentrated liquid. One needs to dilute them to release the notes, IMO. I don’t tend to identify the notes on espressos, unless I dilute them which I do often. Finally, I have drunk a lot of coffee which are thoroughly enjoyable even if I could not identify any notes. Notes are just a confirmation that we got the brews right.

A few things ive picked up that are mostly wrong and spouted on facebook, youtube, reddit and coffee forums by people who think espresso can only be enjoyed as a straight shot . All milk based drinks are the same taste and have to be made with dark roast beans with added robusta. Absolute bill hooks Milk based drinks cant be enjoyed with medium or medium light beans 🤬🤐 People who drink espresso based milk drinks may as well use instant coffee. 😡😠👺🗯️ Any grinder will do for milk drinks as you need lots of fines to enjoy it 🤬😂😡😠👺 Well, lets just say i prefer to think a lot of experts and influencers are sadly Wrong at best. Its probably better to talk about equipment!!

My preferences seem to change with the seasons. I prefer lighter more fruity / acidic coffee in the summer and warmer months and tend to drink more pour overs. During the dark cold winter months I prefer espresso based milk drinks so opt for thicker , heavier mouthfeel & flavours.

> @"Adrianmsmith"#p73954 Its probably better to talk about equipment!! Isn't the purpose of using specific equipment to steer the flavour profile?

I can only laugh at the time/money some spend in their pursuit of the hyped next best thing. Once a decent level of equipment is reached you're just pissing in the wind trying to get much more than .5% perceived improvement. By far the most important variable is the coffee being used. I have a very capable machine/grinder setup that gives me exactly what I prefer with straight espresso, main focus is on green selection/roast development. That will deliver by far more results in the demitasse than all equipment changes made regardless of price spent. Also don't buy into the 'supertaster' bull**** as we all have different levels of taste/aroma perception. None is better than the rest, just different. Hilarious when some mention they aren't on a 'professional/expert' level when discussing their findings on coffee, equipment, etc. Only difference between professional and amateur status is the pro gets paid to do it, definitely means nothing in the way of actual skill/knowledge on a given subject.

@"MWJB"#p73960 I would argue it's about getting "better" coffee based on whichever metric you may wish to use to measure that! There's also the functional side of how things work, do they make your life easier or more repeatable. Workflow, ease of use etc not to mention sometimes just wanting something pretty or well made. We might try to tell ourselves that we're chasing marginal gains but I think a lot of us enjoy the hobby and like to experiment with no specific purpose or expected outcomes.

> @"JonWoo187"#p73964 Also don’t buy into the ‘supertaster’ bull\*\*\* Yeh, the thing is you will never have the same taste as them no matter what words you use to describe that taste . And theres no memory function in the human brain to recall an exact taste from yesterday or last week, just perception and or bull 5h1t. If it were possible to split a shot in to 5 and somehow freeze it in time, i don't think it would taste the same 5 days running as my, your, our mouth won't be in exactly the same state 5 days running. And im talking my morning coffee in my kitchen, not some laboratory experiment under laboratory controlled conditions. As for equipment "upgrades", i, for one change equipment as much to see how different equipment works and how different theories follow through than to make "better" coffee. "Better" is very difficult to describe or even define. After all were not talking black / white, good / bad, were talking slight differences at the level of equipment usually discussed on this forum.

I think the tasting notes on the bag are needed to encourage people to buy it and to know roughly what to expect? There may well me a lot of poetic license but the flavour descriptors draw me in every time, I’m a sucker for anything exotic sounding even if I haven’t a clue what it tastes like.

A lot of defensive comments here 🤔

Where’s your palate at?

JimmyP

JonWoo187 It’s a shame you don’t understand. Everyone can improve their tasting ability 🙂👍

JonWoo187

JimmyP Dude, I TOTALLY understand everything that affects my everyday and at the end of the day that’s all that counts. ‘Improve/better’ are opinion and not much else. I definitely find the craze over equipment and burr blindness to be hilarious to say the least, but we are all entitled to do what WE like.

You mention some don’t focus on the coffee itself, but I DEFINITELY do as that’s by far the most important part of the variable equation, with water balance being a somewhat close second. My main focus is green selection/roast development to get exactly the taste notes/texture I strongly prefer with espresso. No equipment change regardless of type/cost will ever come close to matching changes I can make with the coffee itself.

You can keep barking up the wrong tree, but clearly that dog can’t/won’t hunt, bwahaha.

JimmyP

LMSC I sense you’re triggered here. By something you don’t like.
But I will bear your suggestions in mind 🙂👍

JimmyP

DavecUK You are forgiven 🙂👍

JimmyP

Ok. I sense a certain amount of discontent here, but I don’t suffer fools gladly!
For those that want to improve their palates I repeat my question of how you do that?
Surely you pay attention when you taste your coffee?
Let’s break that down. What questions do you ask yourself when you taste your coffee 🙂👍

dfk41

JimmyP What questions do you ask yourself when you taste your coffee

Do I drink it or do I sink it? The fundamentals here are the type of bean you choose to make coffee from. Unless you have no prep skills at all, then the tweaks you make might improve the drink but if your bean choice is wrong…….

MWJB

JimmyP Let’s break that down. What questions do you ask yourself when you taste your coffee 🙂👍

The first question I ask is, ‘have I made a representative cup?’. Does it have prominent generic faults like under-extraction, is it too silty & muddy. Has this brew method given me good results with the last few bags of coffee.

How you make the coffee in the first place affects how acidic/balanced/dry it will turn out.

In fact, scratch that - the question above is my 2nd question, the first would be, ‘Am I buying an origin that is one that I do not have a dislike for, based on my previous experience?’

…OK scratch that…Q1 is now Q2, & Q2 is now Q3…the real Q1 is, ‘Is my experience with this roaster generally positive?’ My first purchase with any roaster is always a speculative punt…I try not to form too firm an opinion on that particular coffee based on 1 roast from anyone.

Oh dear, this post is beginning to sound a bit like a Spanish Inquisition…

LMSC

JimmyP For those that want to improve their palates I repeat my question of how you do that?
Surely you pay attention when you taste your coffee?
Let’s break that down. What questions do you ask yourself when you taste your coffee 🙂👍

Tbh, I had thought the intent of your first post on this thread of yours was good.

Please ask these questions yourself, which I am sure you had, and lead from the front.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! 👍

JimmyP

DavecUK Part of what I’m trying to do here is challenge the unhealthy environment of nerdy blokes talking about their equipment.
Let’s talk about coffee! 😅👍

DavecUK

JimmyP Part of what I’m trying to do here is challenge the unhealthy environment of nerdy blokes talking about their equipment.

I’d prefer you didn’t do that, everyone is entitled to enjoy their coffee in the way they like best. Some like talking about kit, others like the tactile sensation of producing coffee, some like to try new techniques and identify/improve flavours.

It isn’t for you to decide what’s unhealthy or nerdy, or insult people, and to try to do so, simply makes you a troll in the eyes of others. So you won’t get your message across whatever it is, as people won’t engage with it..

JimmyP

dfk41 It’s a shame you’re so limited. I would be keen to offer help if you hadn’t hurled abuse yesterday 🫤

dfk41

JimmyP It’s a shame you’re so limited. I would be keen to offer help if you hadn’t hurled abuse yesterday

I am tempted to say have some more but that is what you want and I am not feeding you. Once again you have come onto this forum and stirred trouble up. You have not contributed one bit of help to anyone. I suspect even if you offered help to folks, they would not want it matey…..so, what is next then Jimmy?

Amberale

MWJB

I wasn’t expecting that.

Pompeyexile

For what my opinion is worth, which I grant you is not much. I have told you sort of where my palate is at, and that is not very, if at all attuned to the tasting notes given out by roasters for their beans. So, as I have not in your mind (I hope) been a bit nasty or sarcastic to you in my response, how about you enlightening me how (apart from just cupping) I can go about improving my palate? You say you have been trained to improve yours, so what is the secret? What did the training involve? Can it be replicated in a non-professional home environment? And if that is possible, what references would there be for me to know it has improved?

So, there you have it, straight down the line. I have told you where my palate is at.

I love ‘real’ coffee, and I am disappointed I cannot appreciate all the nuances it has to offer that others can, because my palate is that of a Neanderthal. I AM eager to learn, as I know are most people on here, regardless of what you think… So, teach us. Give us something to try and respond to. The one thing about most good teachers, is that they want to pass on their knowledge. Not keep it to themselves and mock those less informed.

JimmyP

I’m sorry if I’ve hurt feelings here. That was never my intention at the start.

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