Hello Guys, Planning to get Lelit Elizabeth and digging through all issues and recommendations. So the question is: if am gonna use bottled water with good quality ( hardness 65/ pH 7/ chloride 45ppm/ calcium 17ppm/ magnesium 6ppm/ tds 115). So do i need a water filter in the machine that am gonna buy? Or it's better not to use it? Does the filter eleminate necessary salts for a good coffee? Water filter that i mean is the lelit tank filter. Thanks Ibrahim

Welcome to the forum…. @"Rob1"#171 is our water expert…but from my perspective. The Lelit filter will reduce scaling . By how much (from new to old) and for how long probable depends on your current water

@"DavecUK"#p10481 Thanks man, appreciate the quick response. The plan is to use bottled water as long it's the best option I have. The point is will the filter reduce the quality of coffee if used (removal of balanced amount of salts from the bottled water)?

@"Ibrahim"#p10482 Some people think it does, others think it doesn't? You can find a good bottled water that won't scale due to composition, and perhaps not use the in tank filter at all.

@"DavecUK"#p10488 Thanks a lot for help dave

Hardness looks a little high, do you know the bicarbonate or alkalinity concentration? Chlorides are above LM recommended spec for boiler safety, which is quite a generous limit imo.

[URL=https://i.imgur.com/PMycURF.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/PMycURF.jpg[/IMG][/URL] @"Rob1"#p10652

@"Rob1"#p10652 here's a photo of that specific water brand. And thanks Rob 😊

You'll need to raise alkalinity to about 40mg/l, maybe more. Worth saying you might get away with less as plenty of people use ashbeck and enoy it. At 40mg/l it'll be slightly scale forming at service boiler temps (e.g 125c) due to the hardness present if the alkalinity comes from bicarbonate sources e.g. sodium bicarb, which is most commonly used to remineralise water by people using RO and DI water. It's far from ideal water for coffee as it is. You don't really need hardness, alkalinity will act as a buffer and reduce perceived acidity. If it is too low you can get sour coffee and the water can be quite aggressive for boilers. You have almost no alkalinity as it is. So in answer to your question the filter won't eliminate necessary salts for good coffee, it'll replace hardness ions of Ca and Mg with Na and leave the negligible bicarbonate unaltered. At brew boiler temps it'll be fine even up to 115c with alkalinity added up to 40mg/l even if you have a 20c offset to get 95c at the group….which you probably won't? The problem would be in the service boiler which you'll need to descale. Dave will know more about the Elizabeth specifically and how prone it is to problems from scaling and whether or not you even can just descale the service boiler as I'm not sure with the way the Elizabeth works. I wouldn't use this water in a 316 or 316l steel boiler though due to high chlorides, which a filter will not remove. Though you could use a filter to remove hardness and add alkalinity yourself before or after filtration. Using a filter is really at odds with using bottled water though.

@"Rob1"#p11090 That's why Dave called you the water expert! Only who works in water can know that much. Thanks a lot man. In this case I'll be looking for another alternative for this brand. Limited choices here! And tap water is a desalinated sea water, am getting residues even with filteration. I'll update you and thanks 👍

Hi, forgive me if this has been answered before, but i am a new member and still finding my way around! I have just purchased a Lelit Elizabeth, and I believe it is possible to 'regenerate' the in line water filter using salt much like a household water softener, is this feasible? My other question is I have a 'drinking water' tap with an 'Anti scale' filter which keeps the kettle pretty scale free. I checked the hardness of the water from this with a test strip, and it came back as hard! I contacted the manufacturer, who said that was normal as the calcium was not removed from the water, but rendered inactive by the filter. Not sure if this would be OK for my machine or not?

Water filter importance when using bottled water

Ibrahim

Rob1

Hi again.

It’s been some time. I was searching and checking possibilities of water formula.

The formula you mentioned here magnesium hydroxide to distilled and carbonated water plus sodium bicarbonate seems really good and matching target, but as long i don’t have much time during the day i found rpavlis recipe and seems easy ( maybe some flat taste, but will start with it and then your recipe will be next).

I agree with you, because logically the distilled water should not be a problem in steam boiler, otherwise the steam wand would get corrosion, but it doesn’t! So good news. Now my question is: are you draining your service boiler by opening the water tap on machine until water finished? And what about filling? What do mean by manually?

One last thing Rob, is empty the brew boiler in bianca PITA? Is it related to paddle?

Have a good day

Rob1

Ibrahim

I don’t know if the boilers have drain valves on them or not. Without a drain valve emptying a brew boiler is a pita because….well how do you get water out without pumping water in? It’s a very long process of dilution. You either need a fixture on top that’s easy to remove and doesn’t risk breaking anything, or you can remove the mushroom and tip the machine upside down.

Ibrahim

Rob1

Bianca doesn’t have drain after research, so the only way to drain brew boiler is to flip the machine upsidedown.

my question is: are you draining your service boiler by opening the water tap on machine until water finished? And what about filling? What do mean by manually?

Rob1

Ibrahim Well the other way would be to remove the thermocouple and use a syringe to remove the water. I wouldn’t personally want to be doing that.

For the service boiler I remove the anti-vacuum valve and use a syringe to get water in and out, which is what I mean by manually. The alternative, possibly easier and safer way is to drain through the hot water tap and fill using the pump and reservoir. My anti-vac valve is fitted with PTFE and is just a little more than finger tight so no risk of snapping threads off or anything - not everyone is so lucky. And I personally find it easier and less faff than emptying and refilling the reservoir, though with the Bianca that might be easier….

JahLaza

Slightly off topic but within the water regions! I couldn’t believe the difference in the cup using different water to make up the americano. In work the last 2 days, bringing in my pre made espressos and topping up with water. Yesterday I threw out what I had left after making the first one- I thought I had made it all wrong, was like pear drops jumping out of the cup. Today I ensured to cut the shots shorter (on a medium to light roast atm) and had one at home using osmio water to top up as I always do and it was very nice. Just had a cup in work and again it’s crazy fruity, so, has to be the water in work from the burco boiler. Amazing the difference it makes (for the worse like). Dunno if it’s just the water spec here or a build up of scale within the burco that would do this? Think it would be a step too far if I start to bring in my own water too!!

Ibrahim

JahLaza

This is exactly the reason im trying to understand the water thingy in coffee. It’s making a lot of difference if water switched from one to another.

Thanks for sharing.

Cuprajake

Well coffee is 80% water 😁

JahLaza

Cuprajake very true, but whatever the composition here, it enhances the ‘fruityness’ like crazy. Or perceived fruityness. Just thought it interesting whatever chemistry is going on!!

Ibrahim

JahLaza

You mean more clarity (fruitness), right?

Ibrahim

Rob1

Then following the easy path will be for emptying the service boiler.

So I’ll be using rpalvis recipe until i become confident with machine, then might ask you later on in depth about your recipe.

Plus refilling service boiler with distilled water every few weeks or days to ensure no scale build up.

And lastly will be using lelit filter 70l as a guarantee also.

Rob1

Ibrahim If you’re remineralising to a spec don’t use a filter, it makes no sense. The filter will just alter the water in a way that is inconsistent. If you just use the bicarb recipe to get 40-50mg/l alkalinity then don’t bother with the distilled water step as you can’t get scale from bicarbonate alone.

JahLaza

Ibrahim no, not clarity just an exaggerated ‘fruity’ taste/note from the coffee, as if a drop of fruit concentrate was added or something!

Ibrahim

JahLaza

So fruitness is just like a flavor profile

And clarity is the ability to distinguish between two or more flavor profiles and their popping in coffee.

Rob1

JahLaza could be higher alkalinity - which buffers the acid and maybe makes the acids more balanced with the sugars (i.e fruity), whereas lower alkalinity may make the coffee ‘bright’ rather than fruity. The opposite could also be true (i.e now fruity because previous acids were too subdued).

JahLaza

Ibrahim I think so. I may not be using the correct olfactory descriptive terms but that’s the best way I can describe

Ibrahim

JahLaza

As long it’s a delicious coffee, then it doesn’t matter.

Ibrahim

Rob1

R pavlis recipe has alkalinity of 50 mg/L CaCO3 equivalent (full strength r pavlis).

In this case i can Remove distilled water step (i mean refilling service boiler) like you said and no need for filter.

Perfect!

dutchy101

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/areas-london-residents-drink-dirtiest-23927009

This gave me s laugh earlier.

Camden recorded a TDS rating of 302. This means that according to the World Health Organisation, people in Camden are drinking water of a “poor” quality.

Meanwhile in Ruislip:

302 TDS in Camden you say? Luxury

DavecUK

dutchy101 Norfolk? or East Anglia?

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK

dutchy101 Meanwhile in Ruislip

London village 😉

dutchy101

MediumRoastSteam

London borough of Hillingdon I think you’ll find haha

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