It strikes me that there’s plenty of chaps here that are confident talking about equipment, but tend to shy away from discussing the flavour of coffee and their ability to taste it.
Any thoughts? 🤔
Flair 58, Mahlkonig EK43, Kinu M47, 1zpresso ZP6.
Where’s your palate at?
JimmyP Well, people here tend to make their own coffee beverage, rather than buy it (like you might a pack of cheese & onion crisps), so you also need to consider (as well as a higher interest in gear/technique, over Oz Clarke style taste reviews) that some people’s ability to taste what they make is fine and that:
a) There may be a malfunction in the making of the drink getting in the way of its presentation.
b) They may prefer it with additions like milk, sugar.
c) The notes supplied by the roaster may be tenuous/overly specific (I’ve never eaten a lingonberry, nor tasted an orange blossom). Some people seem to see specific notes as a little pretentious (not just in coffee, I’ve seen it with respect to beer & whisky too).
For me personally, how nice the coffee is overall trumps whether supplied notes are tangible, but it’s a bonus when it all comes together (at least one or two of the notes mentioned are detectable). Non coffee nerds that I make coffee for, talk of a lack of expected ‘bitterness, wine like, fruit, nice’, etc.
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First, one needs a sensitive palate to pick and differentiate the fine nuisances of flavours and aromas. A lack of it can be a challenge.
Second , how accurate are the descriptions on the bag?
Third, merely writing papaya, peach, nectarine, pears, jasmine does not help. We appreciate those roasters who write a few lines of their experiences of what their coffee taste like when they cupped them? This is very important than a mere customary noting of notes. Except a few, this is largely absent even amongst those who sell coffee bags in the north of £80. I don’t expect to find more than one or two (if at all) on a bag.
Fourth, I try to keep the notes simple. I have a sensitive palate. I brew and see what aromas and flavour I can find - grinding to drinking. The coffee flavours change as it cools. A gentle to moderate smooth fruity acidity for me is characteristics of stone fruits, pears or grapes. Lemon, tea, winey and florals can have a slight enjoyable tart dry edge at the finish. Berries typically have an elevated acidity, which I love. They can be easily mistaken for a sour cup. I avoid coffee which have caramel, cocoa and chocolate notes as I drink black only. Like Grapefruit, they (especially cocoa and dark chocolate) can be difficult to delineate if they are notes or a brew malfunction. These also spoil my nice black coffee. 😊
Fifth, notes on espressos are a different class altogether as scope for a brew malfunction is greater than on a filter. For me, it is very difficult to pick the notes on the thick concentrated liquid. One needs to dilute them to release the notes, IMO. I don’t tend to identify the notes on espressos, unless I dilute them which I do often.
Finally, I have drunk a lot of coffee which are thoroughly enjoyable even if I could not identify any notes. Notes are just a confirmation that we got the brews right.
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A few things ive picked up that are mostly wrong and spouted on facebook, youtube, reddit and coffee forums by people who think espresso can only be enjoyed as a straight shot .
All milk based drinks are the same taste and have to be made with dark roast beans with added robusta.
Absolute bill hooks
Milk based drinks cant be enjoyed with medium or medium light beans
🤬🤐
People who drink espresso based milk drinks may as well use instant coffee.
😡😠👺🗯️
Any grinder will do for milk drinks as you need lots of fines to enjoy it
🤬😂😡😠👺
Well, lets just say i prefer to think a lot of experts and influencers are sadly Wrong at best.
Its probably better to talk about equipment!!
Ade Smith. ACS Evo Leva v2. Kafatek Flat max 2, ssw 2024. Mazzer Philos, Craig Lyn HG-1 prime., WW key mk1.
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My preferences seem to change with the seasons. I prefer lighter more fruity / acidic coffee in the summer and warmer months and tend to drink more pour overs. During the dark cold winter months I prefer espresso based milk drinks so opt for thicker , heavier mouthfeel & flavours.
Adrianmsmith Its probably better to talk about equipment!!
Isn’t the purpose of using specific equipment to steer the flavour profile?
I can only laugh at the time/money some spend in their pursuit of the hyped next best thing. Once a decent level of equipment is reached you’re just pissing in the wind trying to get much more than .5% perceived improvement. By far the most important variable is the coffee being used. I have a very capable machine/grinder setup that gives me exactly what I prefer with straight espresso, main focus is on green selection/roast development. That will deliver by far more results in the demitasse than all equipment changes made regardless of price spent.
Also don’t buy into the ‘supertaster’ bull**** as we all have different levels of taste/aroma perception. None is better than the rest, just different. Hilarious when some mention they aren’t on a ‘professional/expert’ level when discussing their findings on coffee, equipment, etc. Only difference between professional and amateur status is the pro gets paid to do it, definitely means nothing in the way of actual skill/knowledge on a given subject.
I would argue it’s about getting “better” coffee based on whichever metric you may wish to use to measure that!
There’s also the functional side of how things work, do they make your life easier or more repeatable. Workflow, ease of use etc not to mention sometimes just wanting something pretty or well made. We might try to tell ourselves that we’re chasing marginal gains but I think a lot of us enjoy the hobby and like to experiment with no specific purpose or expected outcomes.
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JonWoo187 Also don’t buy into the ‘supertaster’ bull***
Yeh, the thing is you will never have the same taste as them no matter what words you use to describe that taste .
And theres no memory function in the human brain to recall an exact taste from yesterday or last week, just perception and or bull 5h1t.
If it were possible to split a shot in to 5 and somehow freeze it in time, i don’t think it would taste the same 5 days running as my, your, our mouth won’t be in exactly the same state 5 days running. And im talking my morning coffee in my kitchen, not some laboratory experiment under laboratory controlled conditions.
As for equipment “upgrades”, i, for one change equipment as much to see how different equipment works and how different theories follow through than to make “better” coffee.
“Better” is very difficult to describe or even define.
After all were not talking black / white, good / bad, were talking slight differences at the level of equipment usually discussed on this forum.
Ade Smith. ACS Evo Leva v2. Kafatek Flat max 2, ssw 2024. Mazzer Philos, Craig Lyn HG-1 prime., WW key mk1.
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I think the tasting notes on the bag are needed to encourage people to buy it and to know roughly what to expect?
There may well me a lot of poetic license but the flavour descriptors draw me in every time, I’m a sucker for anything exotic sounding even if I haven’t a clue what it tastes like.
Adrianmsmith You’re avoiding the question here buddy. Surely if we’re looking to enjoy the finer points of coffee tasting then milk will cloud the issue? 🤔
Flair 58, Mahlkonig EK43, Kinu M47, 1zpresso ZP6.
JimmyP Surely if we’re looking to enjoy the finer points of coffee tasting then milk will cloud the issue? 🤔
Why do you think that? There are espresso based drinks and espresso drinks. Each are individual. Obviously if you pick up certain flavours in straight espresso then it is highly unlikely you will detect the same flavours in milk….but that does not somehow make your preference for non milk based drinks any more relevant.
Of course you are right that a person gets to a certain level of kit, then the returns are diminished and it becomes a billy big balls excercise
Unfortunately, for those who do not agree, espresso based milk drinks are enjoyable.
Straight espresso is , putting it politely, not enjoyable .
Maybe i should leave the forums and stick with facebook if the forums need everyone to actually enjoy straight espresso. ☕
Ade Smith. ACS Evo Leva v2. Kafatek Flat max 2, ssw 2024. Mazzer Philos, Craig Lyn HG-1 prime., WW key mk1.
Adrianmsmith I’m not denying that people enjoy milky coffee drinks. But I also believe that straight espresso can be delicious to anyone. Assuming it’s prepared correctly 🙂👍
Flair 58, Mahlkonig EK43, Kinu M47, 1zpresso ZP6.
More defensive stuff. I reckon some people here need a cupping session with a good teacher! 😅👍
Flair 58, Mahlkonig EK43, Kinu M47, 1zpresso ZP6.
Adrianmsmith Both are enjoyable to those that enjoy them. I have, in the past, very much enjoyed coffee with milk. Sadly, this option was taken from me, rather than a conscious decision, or choice. So now, mainly black coffee for me unless a non-dairy option is available (I don’t stock milk at home).
Nevertheless, coffee with/without milk has a taste…surely this can be discussed?
I’ve never heard anyone say coffee with milk is not enoyable. I have heard people express a preference/requirement for coffee without. It’s not necessarily a slur on adding milk. Besides, you make coffee with water, at this point extraction has happened…from now on the addition of milk is an adjustment/dilution of the coffee made.