Grahamsphillips

Unfortunately the inuit appears to have evidence of commonly having heart disease even in the 1940s and of course the mummified remains of 2000 year old inuit corpses show arthrosclerosis. So it appears not only a modern issue but it has alwaya been an injit problem which would explode the myth of inuit invulnerability to heart disease as being something arrived at erroneously by anti ancel keys people?

On the masai, it is apparently true that there is high infant mortality though reporting of death is complicated by the masai social custom of not mentioning rhe dead. However aa this study shows l, the story on mortality doesn’t end there because adult mortality is also very high as well. Among others they have very high rates if mothers dying in childbirth, among the worlds highest hiv infectioj rates due to their serial promiscuity and the dangers of their pastoral lifestyle such as stepping on land mines! So it appears that the 42 to 45 year mortality rate is not caused just by infant mortality rate but by adults dying too early as well…

https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/264/

The same poor and inaccuratereporting of death would also constain and loqer the rate of accurate report of death due to heart attacks etc. Anyway whatever it is about the masai that causes them to have lower reported rates of each due to heart disease despite having much evidenceof arthrosclerosis, is it translatable to other people of other cultures and ethnicities? Either it is due to their extremely high levels of moderate cardiovascular exercise of walking 19 km a day more than modern Americans m (which BTW is similar to Mediterranean shepherds in blue zone lifestyles) or it is due tl a genetic adaptaiton due to their diet iver thousands of years, it is not able to be reproduced and enjoyed by others…

    Grahamsphillips

    The conclusion that heart attacks, etc were unknown in ancient times is firstly hampered by the fact rhat ancients had vastly different and much more inexact approaches and understandingto describe and diagnose accurately such ailments and would report them to be attributed to different things. As well the ancient civilisations differed in the care at which they examined physiology- the ancient egyptians and Indian and Chinese and greek civilisations were better at it than some others. As well the ancients may have known and practised some things thta were not preserved in the textsthat have survived extant to this day.

    Yet despite that there appears to be significant evidence of heart attacks in ancient times - ancient Egyptian texts show clear descriptions of angina pectoris and possibly heart attack whicj are unsurprising since 34 per cent of Egyptian mummies that were examined were found to have evidence of arthrosclerosis…more evidence is surveyed from ancient Arabia and and the 17th to 19th century Europe - long before the advent of modern processed foods …

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5501035/

    Heart disease was well known to the Chinese of thoisands of years ago with various herbal remedies prescribed for it in Chinese medical texts whicj r followed to this day. Here is an examination of a corpse of a lady who died in ancient China and it was found she had a severely occluded artery that likely caused her death…https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3405812/

    Cancer has been known from ancient times as seen in this website https://canceratlas.cancer.org/history-cancer/

    The book emperor of all maladies also details some of this history if I recall correctly…

    Here is a link that details ancients knowing about diabetes and their remedies for treating it….https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/317484#early-science

    On dementia among the ancients here is a link https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10072-018-3501-4

    Ultimately i am no expert on this topic but my own feeling as an observer to this debate is that while ancel keys may have been found to be incorrect in his thesis that linked dietary cholestrol to blood cholesterol and heart disease and dietary saturated fats have been wrongly demonised, some of his detractors may be making a similar mistake as his to go to the other extreme to lionise meat based saturated fats as being totally safe to the extent of even advocating for meat only or carnivorous diets. There was a tweet by nina telchotz where she entertained rhe idea of adopting such a diet. While it may be helpful for certain auto immune conditions (most famously jordan and Michaela peterson), for otherwise healthy people to adopt such a diet may be as unwise as adopting the pufa rich oxidised fats and processed diet thar many people have currently adopted because yet again it is not borne out by any of the traditional cultures that are famed for producing a populace of general good health and extremely long longevity…

        Elcarajillo

        Couldn’t agree more with you on the importanceof regular tests and checkups healthwise especially as we get older. I am sorry to hear about how glaucoma has affected you and thanks for caring to share to us to warn us of the dangers.

          Elcarajillo Whilst on the subject of health. Some members may recall me mentioning in’ another place’ about the importance of regular eye tests. Glaucoma is an insidious thing that creeps up on you without you noticing. When it is found it may be possible to halt / slow its progress with eye drops or it may need invasive surgery which still may not completely halt its progress.
          In addition to Glaucoma (pressure build up which damages the optic nerve) the eye test can pick up other problems which you may not notice.
          After multiple eye drops and multiple lots of surgery I am now blind in one eye and only partially sighted in the other .
          Get an eye test= regularly.

          Indeed. Now since you’ve brought up eye-health lets discuss AMD, so called Age Related Macular Degeneration. Just like cancer, dementia and heart disease it was unknown until around 120y ago. Dr Chris Knobbe *(scroll up for video). There were FIFTY reports of AMD in the world literature upto 1930. Now its the world’s leading cause of blindness. That’s right, an almost unknown disease prior to 1930 is now the leading cause of blindness and it tracks perfectly with the rise in heart disease… WHY? Because its essentially the same disease process (vascular damage and inflammation) played out in the eye c/f the vascular system. Same disease. Same root cause. Its what we eat!

              chlorox Ultimately i am no expert on this topic but my own feeling as an observer to this debate is that while ancel keys may have been found to be incorrect in his thesis that linked dietary cholestrol to blood cholesterol and heart disease and dietary saturated fats have been wrongly demonised, some of his detractors may be making a similar mistake as his to go to the other extreme to lionise meat based saturated fats as being totally safe to the extent of even advocating for meat only or carnivorous diets. There was a tweet by nina telchotz where she entertained rhe idea of adopting such a diet. While it may be helpful for certain auto immune conditions (most famously jordan and Michaela peterson), for otherwise healthy people to adopt such a diet may be as unwise as adopting the pufa rich oxidised fats and processed diet thar many people have currently adopted because yet again it is not borne out by any of the traditional cultures that are famed for producing a populace of general good health and extremely long longevity…

              Yes its true that cancer, heart disease and dementia WERE known hundreds of years ago the point is they were vanishingly rare. And yes they COULD accurately diagnose these conditions not least by performing autopsies. Have you read the work of Weston Price? A dentist who became fascinated by the deteriorating health of the Americans, he toured many parts of the world. In areas where American Junk Food had gained a foothold the local population became fat, sick and had terrible teeth. Where the traditional diet was followed, this did not occur.

              The US city of Boston is an interesting case in point. They have amazing cause-of-death records for the entire population going back to the 1800s. For example in 1811, the population was 34,737 and there were 942 deaths. Records show 5/942 Cancer deaths (0.53%); Heart Disease ZERO; Apolplexy (Possible stroke) 13/942. Death by drowning (!) 13/942 I could go on. The MAJOR causes of death were infections and death in and around childbirth.. we’re back at life expectancy AT BIRTH

              As for “going carnivore” I’m neither in favour nor against. As you note its a bit extreme but certainly works for some people. But the key point is that there’s been a world wide DROP in red meat consumption while there’s been a RISE in CV death. So its pretty hard to argue that eating red meat gives you a heart attack. There’s also no correlation between all cause mortality (dying of anything) and red meat consumption.

              Nina Teicholz Book “Big FAT Surprise” is well worth reading if you want to understand the history of the seed oils. She spoke at the PHC conference recently

              https://phcuk.org/phc-conference-2023/

                  Grahamsphillips

                  The paucity of references to AMD appears to hve been complicated by the lack of understanding of the disease to the point when evne describing it was a protracted issue - different names were used at different periods and it’s mechanisms were very poorly understood along with the tissues of the eye itself.

                  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5091095/

                  This study tracks the history of research into AMD.

                  So paucity of literature refernces to AMD doesn’t mean that there was no AMD in earlier times - it would just be called going blind….

                      Grahamsphillips

                      The problem is that what you describe is an argument from silence. Firstly there are usually not available demographic records in ancient times surviving till now and secondly even for Boston in the 19th century, the diagnoses of causes of death in an age without autopsies for every death nor the complete medical kmloweldge to give dependable findings. Thirdly how many would have died before cancer would have struck them down in a time when they’re was lower life expectancy? In 1700, the average age when men died in Virginia was at the age of 48! https://blogs.ancestry.com/cm/six-unbelievable-but-true-facts-about-colonial-life/

                      On the rate of death on going all meat diet or carnivore, there may be insufficient data on this as there are no substantial human populations that I am aware of who are purely meat eating except for the inuit ans the latter was by necessity not choice due to their environment. The evidence of every civilisation producing positive health outcomes and longevity having a predominantly plant based diet with comparatively less meat to supplement it does tend to militate against the advisability of such a lifestyle choice. Furthermore it is a rich man’s lifestyle choice as going all meat in diet is considerablymore expensive than eating plant based food predominantly…

                      But even so, there are studies that seem to show negative results for those choosing a predominantly meat based protein source as opposed to plant protein…https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27479196/

                      Suggesting that the rate of meat consumption has gone down while the rate of death has gone up would at best only point to something else contributing to the mortality rate more than meat - it doesn’t give meat a pass since exposure of meat would be dropping. In other words that is a logical fallacy to make that argument.

                      However are u sure there has really been a drop in meat consumption globally? According to this website there has actually been a very substantial RISE in global meat consumption since 1961 in accordance with rising prosperity all over the world…

                      https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production#:\~:text=As%20a%20global%20average%2C%20per,the%20rate%20of%20population%20growth.

                      If so then if there is rising mortality rate then meat consumption is part of the problem?

                        @chlorox Well I suggest you read some of the fully-referenced texts by the various scientists I’ve mentioned in this thread, and some of the original papers and reach your own conclusion. As I have done.

                        I see the benefits of lifestyle interventions on a daily basis with my clients. I can see objectively and from the data that it works..

                          Grahamsphillips

                          On paucity in the literature, I was referring to what you said “There were FIFTY reports of AMD in the world literature upto 1930. Now its the world’s leading cause of blindness…”

                          I trust your work is helping many people indeed. I am merely commenting on the dangers of going to the opposite extreme to go all meat in one’sdiet instead.

                              chlorox On paucity in the literature, I was referring to what you said “There were FIFTY reports of AMD in the world literature upto 1930. Now its the world’s leading cause of blindness…”

                              I trust your work is helping many people indeed. I am merely commenting on the dangers of going to the opposite extreme to go all meat in one’sdiet instead.

                              The point about AMD is that its not difficult to diagnose- you simply view the back of the eyeball with an ophthalmoscope and you can see it. The ophthalmoscope was invented in 1851 and perfected within 10years and adopted world wide. If AMD had been present then, it would have been seen and reported. It wasn’t reported because it didn’t exist.

                              Anyways I said as much as I usefully can now. Back to my ACS Evo!

                                Slightly back on topic, I find it fascinating how different coffees can have drastically different effects on stomach sensitivities.

                                My partner has had bouts of IBS and finds that different coffee, roasts, and even preparation methods (pourover vs espresso) can have wildly different results. So a big cup of a black PNG can have one effect, but a Brazilian blend prepared in the same way can have completely different results.

                                And yes by results I mean urgency for the toilet…

                                Grahamsphillips

                                Thanks, it’s not debilitating so much these days. After extensive investigation via the NHS (not much help…) and things like self-funded tests it seems most closely linked to stress. The exact same foods, meals even, could produce different results on different days so things like elimination tests proved fruitless.

                                However stress management appears to have significantly improved it to the point it’s quite irregular and relatively minor when it appears.

                                Coffee however, especially on an empty stomach is still avoided!

                                  Grahamsphillips
                                  Edited for relevance.
                                  This was/is in response to your question about an extra 10 years life.
                                  Whilst I am a beef producer in my retirement, our farm is carbon neutral and the stock are basically pets that we eat.(yep.)
                                  We also grow our own veg and fruit and eat more fish and chicken than red meat.

                                  That is a very individual trope.
                                  I have a very good friend in their mid sixties who has an incurable lung disease.
                                  They know the condition well, one of their parents died from the same disease.
                                  They are currently questioning whether they want to proceed with a lung transplant.
                                  Their issue is both their quality of life AND the quality of life of their partner who would/will have to nurse them for years.
                                  Healthy, vital, years not drinking wine, eating meat/seafood etc are not necessarily years that everyone would desire.

                                      Amberale This was/is in response to your question about an extra 10 years life.
                                      Whilst I am a beef producer in my retirement, our farm is carbon neutral and the stock are basically pets that we eat.(yep.)
                                      We also grow our own veg and fruit and eat more fish and chicken than red meat.

                                      That is a very individual trope.
                                      I have a very good friend in their mid sixties who has an incurable lung disease.
                                      They know the condition well, one of their parents died from the same disease.
                                      They are currently questioning whether they want to proceed with a lung transplant.
                                      Their issue is both their quality of life AND the quality of life of their partner who would/will have to nurse them for years.
                                      Healthy, vital, years not drinking wine, eating meat/seafood etc are not necessarily years that everyone would desire.

                                      There’s considerable debate about how well “The War on Cancer” has worked. Truth is there have been some great successes (breast cancer; leukaemia etc) but solid tumours? VERY little progress. And how much of a benefit is a 3 month life extension if the QUALITY of life is atrocious?

                                      This begs the bigger question of WHY has cancer gone from a vanishingly small cause of death (see eg from Boston above) to the No2 killer after ASCVD..

                                      This by Szofia Clemens is compelling

                                          Grahamsphillips

                                          Do you think there’s a causal link between meat consumption (regardless of type) and cancer?

                                          I have no opinion either way nor the slightest level of expertise to have an educated guess, just curious.

                                              Ernie1 Do you think there’s a causal link between meat consumption (regardless of type) and cancer?

                                              Yes but not the one you might have been led to believe. The more red meat we eat, the LESS cancer and LOWER all cause mortality. What’s killing us isn’t Red meat, its (mainly) ultra processed food, poor sleep and physical INactivity. In other words lifestyle. But that’s not what Big Food or Big Pharma want us to believe

                                                  Cancer is a product of

                                                  • genetics
                                                  • age
                                                  • environment
                                                  • diagnostics

                                                  We see more cancer because:

                                                  • We’re generally living longer
                                                  • our environment is quite different and we are exposed to more things (chemicals, hormones, artificial ingredients, radiation emitters, foreign holidays etc..)
                                                  • we have much better diagnostics for cancer, which we didn’t have many years ago (in the olden days people died, often they never knew why)
                                                  • Genetics - not sure but the gene pool doesn’t have weaker genomes weeded out as it did in the olden days, this must have a knock on effect over many generations.

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