Ernie1 dfk41 I have to be truthful as I cannot say the taste is better or different

If you are going to quote me, then please use the whole of the phrase that I said, and not just part of it

dfk41 I have to be truthful as I cannot say the taste is better or different but I can say that no matter what the bean, I find the resulting drink acceptable enough to continue on.

    Ernie1 - I agree to an extent. The grinder seems well designed and offers the option for those who drink espresso and filter. And it’s the Niche, same design principles that speak for themselves.

    But it might not be for me either. I understand logistics and it’s easier to make one product, one packaging, one choice, one assembly line. But as a consumer, I might have hit the buy button 3 days ago if it was £700 and shipped with the espresso burr set only. There’s enough waste as is in the world, and having a 83mm burr set in a drawer for years to come, maybe taken out once in a while, seems like a silly thing to me, from my use case and a consumer’s point of view.

    Maybe they will re-evaluate that and create the Niche Uno, where you can choose the burr set you want it shipped with (and hopefully they also re-evaluate their overseas shipping policy and remove VAT for exports). There are a lot of grinders coming out at the moment. Potentially not as refined as the Niche, but unlike when the Niche Zero was launched, there are now choices out there on the single dose grinder market.

      i think it entirely depends upon your budget, there all very valid points, but i couldn’t pay £1600 for a grinder, i couldn’t pay £800 atm, i think if you look at it just as an 83mm espresso grinder then in the uk its not a bad price, rest of the world the markets come into play etc, its a tricky one for sure

      Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

      I would love to know niches reasoning around international orders - I can only assume they dont want to (or cannot) deal with the VAT paperwork. If I was purchasing outside of the UK I would not be happy about paying UK vat and then getting hit again once it reaches its destination.

        Taste is subjective and it can be trained, educated. There are also people who simply want a nice syrupy, sweet cup of coffee without strong acidity, sour fruits and such.

        To give you an example if i’m going to use a darker roasted coffee let’s say saka bar (a blend with robusta) when pulling this coffee on 3 grinders the difference between the shots will be almost none, or too little to bother. Now if i’m pulling a super light roasted coffee (a Wendelboe filter roast as espresso) the difference between grinders/burrs will be much bigger even if I adjust my shots to get the best out of each burr.

        So take everything that people post with a big question mark, and rely on the fact that posts are subjective and people describe what they experience with their taste and their preferences.

        Instead of focusing on questions like if this is a taste upgrade from a niche zero, I would rather focus on, do I need an upgrade? i want another grinder, I want to try it, a friend of mine got one so I’ll get one too, I want to change my grinder color, it’s my bday and I want a gift, etc (find one of these reasons to buy it) dont go into trying to convince yourself that the taste is 1000$ better cause thats not how it works.

        In the end this is a hobby, and hobby acquisitions dont need rational reason to buy stuff, you just buy it cause that’s what you wanted, period. No need to be convinced by someone.

        dfk41 If you are going to quote me, then please use the whole of the phrase that I said, and not just part of it

        Sorry yes I didn’t mean to intentionally misquote to swing my reply, just that the bit about it not being better was the key takeaway for me, not the fact it was as good, or good enough to continue using.

        Maybe they just want to up sale now by including 2 set of burrs and they would release single set burrs later. It would be only fair to slash the price a bit for ppl that only use one brewing method.

        MattH Niche can’t be “charging VAT” on exported grinders because exported goods are zero rated for VAT. If they are charging exported orders the same VAT inclusive price as UK orders then they are simply charging 20% more for exported goods.

          Gagaryn either way not great if you are abroad (outside the uk)

          MattH I would love to know niches reasoning around international orders - I can only assume they dont want to (or cannot) deal with the VAT paperwork.

          Ernie1 I’d imagine the Gov’t will clamp down on it in time and make it illegal to charge VAT to customers outside the UK.

          Why would the UK government care if they are getting paid when they shouldn’t be?

          If customers outside of the UK are paying VAT in both the UK and their own country, then either Niche is unnecessarily collecting and paying this tax to the UK, which is silly, or they are pocketing the money, which isn’t fair to foreign buyers. In either case it doesn’t seem to me like the right thing to do, especially on an expensive product.

          Removed. No longer using the forum.

            Ernie1 But if someone is charging a customer VAT knowing it isn’t applicable to that customer and subsequently pocketing it because it’s not due to HMRC then that seems like something HMRC would want to outlaw. As above, it’s illegal in some countries already.

            Just for the legal aspects. I want to clarify that this is not something Niche are doing and I am sure you are not suggesting they are. We can be factual (if we know the facts, and it must be accurate as far as it can be). I’ve no problem with the differential pricing discussion, but we must be very careful what we say.

            For accounts to be signed off, what a company is doing must be financially legal.

            If a company is collecting VAT, it must issue an invoice showing the breakdown of the amount paid by the customer. If they don’t send, it must be issued on demand. If no VAT is charged, the invoice won’t show the VAT / tax component.

            A VAT registered firm must also file a quarterly VAT return showing the breakdown of sales by region - U.K., EU and the rest. They must also indicate the net VAT (ie due to the firm or HMRC by region) on their VAT returns. I know this as I had filed a VAT return for 6 years when I had run my company.

            It’s been a very long time since I ran my firm. The Brexit has complicated the VAT regime. I’m not sure how it’s been sorted.

            The bottom line is a firm collecting the VAT must settle the account with the HMRC to the nearest pound. Otherwise, the VAT return / account with the HMRC would remain unreconciled, risking a settlement of the account with interest and/or penalty.

            Re VAT and the concerns from some that Niche are charging VAT to overseas buyers and pocketing it. It’s far more likely to be exactly the opposite.

            Explainer: I sell to Australians and USA/Canada, Europe and UK. Basically, shopping carts have traditionally made it really difficult to charge VAT/GST to one country and not to another. When I first encountered this problem about 12 years ago, the only solution I found has been to have two completely seperate sales pages/carts/links. One for Australians and another for every other country.

            But that got really messy, really quicly, even with geo tracking cookies.

            People don’t take the time to read and they easily click the wrong link and they may be using a VPN and my oh my, managing that ended up being a time consuming job for someone to figure out the VAT/GST due to the Australian government.

            The solution I decided on was to simply charge one price and to absorb the GST cost on Australian sales. One price for every country, in my case we chose US$ because international buyers relate to that much easier than AU$ or even Euro or GBP.

            So maybe Niche have simply done the same. One price, absorb the VAT cost for UK buyers who will be in the minority. If so, in effect they are doing exactly the opposite of what some have accused of: they are not charging VAT to offshore buyers (come on, that’s nonesense) but rather are wearing the VAT payment to the UK government because they believe it’s worth it for the sake of a cleaner, simpler and less confusing sales process.

            So people can look at it this way: they are lazy or ripping people off.

            Or they can look at it this way: they are choosing a more streamlined option and absorbing the VAT on UK sales.

            However much people think that Martin and Jame Nicholson are unscrupulous, those thoughts absolutely say more about the thinker than they do about the Nicholsons.

            In the Westminster tradition, I will assume they are good blokes until proven otherwise and all evidence to date affirms my assumption.

              I’d be astonished if Niche were stupid enough to be playing silly beggars with VAT, not least bcause it’s a very good way to get yourself in deep poop with HMRC who, quite rightly, take a very dim view of either not charging VAT when you should, or charging it when you shouldn’t. They absolutely don’t like it when VAT, or something described as VAT, gets charged to a customer and not subsequently remitted to them. It’s a first class way to get a VAT audit year after year after year, and runs a decent risk of prompting fraud charges. And that type of ‘charge’ isn’t monetary. ;)

              Oh, and if VAT should be charged and isn’t, HMRC have a direct remedy for that - the company just gets to stump up the missing VAT themselves. The ‘man’ expects his pound of flesh, one way or the other.

              As for the grinder, interesting. I thought this would happen sooner or later but, TBH, am surprised it wasn’t later than this. Nice one, Niche.

              If I didn’t already have a Zero, maybe I’d go a the Duo. Maybe. But I do have a Zero and as I think I said in another thread, it’s good enough for my needs. Could I go chasing every improvement? Suppose so. Could I even taste the difference? I’d have to do a persoal A / B test to know and am not about to spend £800 to do it. Nah, the Zero s enough for me, for both espresso and the odd drip.

              tompoland those thoughts absolutely say more about the thinker than they do about the Nicholsons.

              Not sure that was called for.

              I’m not saying Niche are doing anything illegal, it would just be good to see all customers globally pay a more similar price. If someone selects a shipping region outside of the UK, apply the price minus 20%.

              If they’re absorbing VAT as you suggest then maybe they should raise the price for Brits.